Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-10/tgmwc-10-90.05
Last-Modified: 1999/12/15

Q. On page 66. It is a new paragraph.

A. Yes, I have it now.

Q. "Meanwhile I organized the employment of all Party
members in auxiliary service for the armed forces."

It really looks now as though the Landesgruppenleiter is
organising them, does it not?

A. In this instance, yes.

Q. "Soon our boys and girls could be seen riding proud and
radiant in their Hitler Youth uniforms, beside the German
soldiers on motor-cycles and in jeeps."

Did you yourself know of the organization and work that your
Landesgruppenleiter had put in, in Greece, to assist your
armies in semi-military capacities, or was that another case
like Norway which you did not know anything about?

A. The Landesgruppenleiter in Greece did not create a semi-
military organization, but set up of course in this instance
an organization to aid the troops entering the country in a
sector which was entirely civilian.

Q. Very well; I want just to ask you about another matter.
Have you got a document there which is a telegram from
somebody called Stohrer, in Madrid?

A. Stohrer, yes.

Q. Did Stohrer have something to do with the German Embassy
in Madrid?

A. Stohrer was the German ambassador himself: Doctor von
Stohrer.

Q. This is dated 23rd October, 1939. Just let us see what it
says.

  The Landesgruppenleiter can obtain a very suitable house
  for accommodating the Landesgruppe, including the German
  Labour Front, the Ortsgruppe, the Hitler Youth, and the
  German House Madrid, also room available in case of
  Embassy having to spread out, and especially very
  suitable shut-off room for possible erection of second
  secret radio transmitter, which can no longer be housed
  at the school because of reopening.
  
  Landesgruppenleiter requests me to rent the house through
  the Embassy, in which way very considerable tax expense
  will be avoided. Have no hesitation, in view of
  anticipated partial use by Embassy as mentioned above. If
  you are not agreeable I request wire by return.
  
  Please submit also to Gauleiter Bohle."

Were you telling the truth to this Tribunal when you told
them some twenty minutes ago that you had no knowledge of
wireless sets being used by your organization?

                                                   [Page 29]

A. Yes, because I have no knowledge of these transmitters,
or their use; I must assume that it concerns apparatus of
the Embassy.

DR. SEIDL (Counsel for the defendant Hess): The copy of the
telegram, as I have it before me, does not indicate to whom
this wire was addressed. The last sentence of the telegram
leads one to assume that it was not in any case addressed to
the witness. According to my opinion, I think the witness
should next be asked whether he knew about this wire and to
whom it was addressed.

LT.-COL. GRIFFITH-JONES: Perhaps you will tell Dr. Seidl to
whom the Ambassador in Madrid was likely to send a telegram
on such matters as this?

THE WITNESS: To the Foreign Office at Berlin.

Q. And you, at that time, were State Secretary at the
Foreign Office of Berlin, were you not?

A. Quite right, in October, 1939

Q. Beneath his signature is set out the distribution to - it
mentions various persons in departments in the Foreign
Office in Berlin. Is that so?

A. Yes.

Q. And are you saying now, that all of those departments who
were asked to submit this matter to you, that they all
failed to do so?

A. No, I do not claim that. They surely would have done
that.

Q. Do you remember yourself seeing this telegram before?

A. I cannot recall it. I would have noticed it for I never
heard anything about two secret transmitters in Spain. It
would also be quite in order for me to admit it. However, I
cannot since I do not know about the affair. The distributor
under No. 3 mentions "State Secretary," but that does not
mean me, but the State Secretary of the Foreign Office, the
political one. My designation in the Foreign Office was:
Chief A.O.

Q. I can save you all that. I am not suggesting that that
State Secretary means you, otherwise it would not be asked
to be submitted to you. What I want to know is what you or
your embassy workers, or both of you working together,
wanted with two secret wireless transmitting sets in Spain
in October, 1939?

Are you still saying that your organization was quite
unconcerned with reporting back information of military
importance?

A. Just how do you mean, "reporting back"?

Q. Are you telling the Tribunal - I want you to be quite
clear - are you telling the Tribunal that your organisation
was not being used for espionage purposes in Spain?

A. Yes indeed, I am asserting that. A distinction must be
made between certain members of the organization who
naturally, without my knowledge - I protested against this
often enough - were used abroad for such purposes. I had no
objection to Germans abroad being utilised in time of war
for such tasks, as is the case very frequently in all other
countries. However, I did not want members or officials of
the Ausland Organization to become involved. A distinction
must ...

Q. I do not want to stop you at all. I do not want to stop
you. Go on if you have anything to say. But, in the interest
of time, try and make it as short as possible.

A. It seems to me there is some confusion between the
Ausland Organisation as an organization and what certain
Germans abroad did during the war as their patriotic duty.

Q. I will not argue about that. You see that your
organisation took sufficient official interest to record
accounts of what they were doing in their official books. I
just want to show you one thing further - a document. I have
one further document to put to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: You may as well go on.

LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: It is a document which
has just been

                                                   [Page 30]

found. I have not had it copied. The Tribunal will forgive
me if I read extracts from it?

... It is an original document you hold in your hand and it
appears to be, does it not, a carbon copy of a letter from

THE PRESIDENT: Has Dr. Seidl got one?

LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: Yes, he has one in
German.

Q. Is that a letter from your Landesgruppenleiter Konradi?

A. It seems to be a directive from Konradi but not signed by
him.

Q. If you will look at the end of the letter you will see
that it is actually signed "Konradi," after the usual "Heil
Hitler " ...

A. It is not signed by Konradi, but typed in.

Q. I am very much obliged to you. It is my fault for not
making myself clear. I told you that we have here a carbon
copy. A copy of a letter which was signed and sent by
Konradi. That appears to be so, does it not?

A. That, I do not know, for of course I do not know about
all the letters written by Konradi.

Q. You can take it so far as you are concerned that that is
a German document which has been captured, that it is this
bit of paper that you are holding in your hand which was
found by Allied troops, and that bears a typewritten
signature of Konradi, who was your Landesgruppenleiter in
Rumania, is that correct? You remember that you had a
Landesgruppenleiter in Rumania?

A. His name was Konradi.

Q. And is this a letter of instructions to the Zellenleiter
in Constanza?

A. Yes.

Q. It is dated the 25th of October, 1939. Will you read the
first paragraph?

  "On the 9th and 12th of October, conferences took place
  with the Supreme Party functionaries, or their deputies,
  of the Southeastern and Southern European groups at the
  Offices of the Direction of the Ausland Organisation."

Does that mean Berlin?

A. Yes. Berlin.

Q. That means your office, does it not?

A. Yes, in my office, but not in my personal office.

Q. But is it in the office over which you had complete
control?

A. Yes.

Q. Agreed. I imagine, before we go on, that no orders would
be issued from your head office at a conference of that kind
which were contrary to your direction, would there?

A. Not in important things, naturally not.

Q. Much obliged to you.

  "I subsequently received direct instructions from the
  competent Office of the Direction of the Ausland
  Organization."

So it appears that the direction given at the conference was
confirmed in writing.
  
  "During the war, every National Socialist abroad must
  directly serve the Fatherland, either through propaganda
  for the German cause or by counter-acting enemy
  measures."

Perhaps you will turn over, or rather you will miss out the
English summary ... I am now reading from the next
paragraph, and the next plus one paragraph, then go on to
the next paragraph.

  "As everywhere else it is extremely important to know
  where the enemy is and what he is doing ."

I want you to be quite clear about this, and keep it in
mind. These are directions coming directly from your head
office in Berlin.

  "It has been ascertained that the intelligence service
  has attempted, sometimes most successfully, to obtain
  admittance into the activities of the
  
                                                   [Page 31]
  
  Party Group and its associate organizations for seemingly
  trustworthy persons. It is therefore necessary that you
  thoroughly investigate not only all those persons coming
  into contact with you who are not very well known to you,
  and above all you must scrutinize any new persons and
  visitors appearing in your immediate vicinity. If
  possible, let him be taken in hand by a comrade whose
  absolute Nazi convictions are not generally known to the
  man in the street."

I think we can leave out the rest of that.

  "You are to report everything that comes to your notice,
  even- though it may at first sight appear very
  insignificant. Rumours suddenly arising also come in this
  category, however false they may be."

Do you remember your members in Rumania being told to report
everything? Everything they saw?

A. Yes, of course.

  "An important section of both of your and your comrades'
  work must be industrial concerns and business
  enterprises, not only because you can very well transmit
  your propaganda in this way; particularly in such
  concerns can you easily pick up information concerning
  strange visitors. It is known that the enemy espionage
  organizations are especially active in industrial circles
  both as regards collecting information, and carrying out
  acts of sabotage. Members with close connections in
  shipping and forwarding companies are particularly
  suitable for this work. It goes without saying that you
  must be meticulous and cautious when selecting your
  assistants."

THE PRESIDENT: Do you have some more to read from this
document? If so, we will adjourn now until 2.00 o'clock.

(A recess was taken.)

THE MARSHAL: If, it please the Tribunal, the defendant
Streicher is absent from this session.

ERNST WILHELM BOHLE - Resumed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION - Continued.

BY LIEUTENANT-COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:

Q. Witness, will you look again at the document we, were
reading before the Tribunal adjourned. Would you look at the
paragraph which commences

  "An important phase of both your work and that of your
  comrades must be industrial concerns, business
  enterprises, etc. Not only can you transmit your
  propaganda very well in this way, but it is precisely in
  such concerns that you can easily pick up information
  concerning strange visitors. It is known that the enemy
  espionage organizations are especially active in
  industrial circles, both in gathering information and
  carrying out acts of sabotage. Comrades with close
  connection with dispatch companies are particularly
  suitable for this work. Naturally you must be meticulous
  and cautious when selecting your assistants.
  
  In this connection a reference to inter-State
  organizations and exchange organizations is relevant."

I particularly want you to note these next lines:

  "It has been proved that these often use harmless
  activities as camouflage, and are in reality to be
  regarded as branches of the foreign intelligence
  service."

Witness, does that not exactly describe the way in which the
Ausland Organization was carrying, on its business? Read it
again:

  "It has been proved that these often use harmless
  activities as camouflage,
  
                                                   [Page 32]
  
  and are in reality to be regarded as branches of the
  foreign intelligence  service."

Does not that fit in with the directions that this
Landesgruppenleiter of yours has been writing to his members
in this document?

A. On the contrary, I find that this is clear proof of that
fact, that the organisations mentioned were in a foreign
espionage service and not in the German espionage service.
My interpretation is the exact opposite of that of the
British prosecutor.

Q. Are you not giving instructions here, or is not your
Landesgruppenleiter giving instructions, to carry out
counter-espionage - the work that is carried on by the
intelligence service? Is not that what the writer is writing
about so far?

A. The letter, with which I am not personally familiar,
apparently instructs Germans abroad to turn in a report
whenever they encounter the intelligence service at work: I
do not think that any objection can be raised to that in
time of war.

Q. Very well. We will not go on arguing about it. I
understand that you know nothing about the instructions
which are contained in that letter. This is the first you
have ever seen or heard of it, is that right?

A. No, this letter is new to me, and I do not know if it is
true. The one that I have is not the original.

Q. May I take it then that, of the countries around Germany
in which your organization worked, you have no knowledge of
the activities that they were carrying out in Belgium? You
have no knowledge of the activities that they were carrying
out in Norway, none about what they were doing in Spain, and
not very much about what they were doing in Rumania either,
is that correct?

A. No, that is not correct. Of course I knew of the activity
of these groups abroad; but that particular activity that
the British prosecutor wishes to point out as the aim of the
Ausland Organisation is not quite clear to me.

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