Archive/File: imt/nca/supp-b/nca-sb-02-kaltenbrunner.18
Last-Modified: 1997/11/24

         Nazi Conspiracy & Aggression, Supplement B
         Treatment of Commandos and Airborne Troops
                              
     Excerpts from Testimony of Ernst Kaltenbrunner,
     taken at Nurnberg, Germany, 10 November 1945, 1430-
     1545, by Lt. Col. Smith W. Brookhart, IGD. Also
     present: John Albert, Interpreter; Frances Karr,
     Reporter.

                                                 [Page 1322]
                                                            
Q. Well, let us go back to the subject we took up earlier,
before we got on the question of veracity. I showed you your
letter of 23 January 1945 which makes reference to the
earlier Hitler Order of 18 October 1942, as to how commandos
were to be dealt with. Let me show you some other documents.
The first two documents (540-PS) appear to be a draft
followed by the letter that was signed. Those two are dated
30 January 1945 and 8 February 1945.

I will read this paragraph into the record: "On
recommendation of the Chief of the Security Police and the
Security Service (SD), the letter of 28 September 1944 is
corrected as follows:

"The Fuehrer's Order on the elimination of terrorists and
saboteurs in the occupied territories of 30 July 1944, as
well as 18 August, 1944 (No. OKW/WEST/Qu2/Verw. 1
009169/44g/Kdes) refers only to non-German civilian persons
in the occupied territories.

"For the treatment of commandos the Fuehrer's Order of 18
October 1942 (No. OKW/WEST Qu2/VerW. No. 003830/42 g.Kdes)
is still valid."

"By direction--"

To which there is a reply, which contains this last
paragraph:

                                                 [Page 1323]
                                                            
"However, since the Security Service (SD) does not agree to
this, a difference of opinion in this case appears to be
immaterial. Earliest decision is requested since answer to
SS General Doctor Kaltenbrunner is to be sent as soon as
possible."

Now, do these communications serve to refresh your
recollection any?

A. No.

Q. You still deny knowledge of the letter of 23 January
1945?

A. I do not recall the letter.

Q. And you deny knowledge of any subsequent action taken by
the Commander of the Southeast?

A. Of course. Apart from the fact that this commander of the
Southeast was not subordinated to me, he was subordinated to
the armed forces commanders.

Q. We understand how the police operated in conjunction with
the army. It was not necessarily a direct channel of
command.

A. But this was a letter from the Supreme Commander of the
armed forces to the Commander Southeast of the armed forces.

Q. That is clear from the document but it makes reference to
the letter that has to be sent to you as soon as possible.
And they even revised the draft, which is the first copy, to
include the sentence referring to you in the signed copy,
showing that he had knowledge of your letter and the action
that was to be expected.

A. From that it can only be seen that the armed forces
intended to write a letter to me. Whether rightly or wrongly
and whether I was the right authority to write to, is open
to question. In any case, the armed forces wanted to get in
touch with the Gestapo, as can be seen from this exchange of
letters and I am convinced that an officer of the Gestapo,
namely that one mentioned on top of the letter, has written
this document (pointing to 535-PS).

Q. Well, this is the letter that you know nothing about, but
that nevertheless established just how you accomplished your
desires by writing to the Supreme Command of the armed
forces. That is very clear.

A. But I deny that I have written this letter.

Q. No, you just didn't know about it, but now you deny it?

A. I not only did not know the Hitler Order, but I also did
not know this letter.

Q. But you acknowledge your signature?

A. I did not say that this is my signature, I only said that
it resembles my signature and I also said it is possible
that a

                                                 [Page 1324]
                                                            
rubber stamp, bearing my signature, was used. I cannot
recall a letter of such contents, signed by myself.

Q. Would it be any more convincing to you if you saw the
original letter, signed in ink?

A. I could be more convinced but it would still not prove
that I signed in ink.

Q. There was only one Dr. Kaltenbrunner on 23 January 1945
who was the chief of the Sicherheitspolizei?

A. But maybe this certain Ernst Kaltenbrunner was not in
Berlin just at that time.

Q. Just answer my question first. Is that true?

A. Certainly.

Q. And you were the man?

A. No. I did not have the function which you imply this man
had.

Q. I do not imply anything. I ask you if you are the man who
held this position?

A. No.

Q. You are not the man?

A. There was no other Ernst Kaltenbrunner who was Chief of
the Security Police. But this Ernst Kaltenbrunner, who sits
opposite you and whom you call Chief of Security Police and
SD on January 23, did not write this letter. (To the
Interpreter) I did not say this. I said this Ernst
Kaltenbrunner, who sits opposite you, did not have the
function of Chief of Security Police and SD on January 23,
1945.

Q. What was your function at that time?

A. As I described to you frequently, I was in charge of the
Intelligence Service.

Q. You have, of course, denied responsibility for anything
that was done in AmT IV and AmT V and AmT VI, except in a
minor was in the latter case.

A. I denied any responsibility as to AmT VI, as far as AmT
MIL was concerned. The reports on foreign policy, made by
AmT VI, I partly used in my reports.

Q. The testimony of other witnesses, who served many years
in the RSHA, is that you were, in fact, the Chief of the
RSHA and that you exercised and executed control throughout
the organization as you would have been expected to do.

A. That testimony is incorrect.

Q. And further, that during the period between Heydrich's
death and your appointment to the Chief of RSHA, Amt Chiefs
did deal directly with Himmler and that thereafter,
everything cleared through you, with a few exceptions.

                                                 [Page 1325]
                                                            
A. That testimony is also incorrect but I think it is also
incorrect to use me for elaborating on the prosecutor's case
against me.

Q. Well, this is for your benefit, unless you find this
boring.

A. It is not boring to me. I have had the feeling in all my
previous interrogations, that you are always looking for
evidence of my guilt and that you are not taking into
consideration any points which would be in my favor. I find
myself now in the state of preparation for my defense and I
do not find it appropriate that you continue to look for
material which would incriminate me.

Q. Is your statement made in the form of an objection to
further questioning?

A. In that sense as I stated it right now. If there is a
possibility to be confronted with witnesses and do something
about testimony in my favor, I would be very glad to
continue. But even there, I have the feeling that it would
be better to do this during the evidence at the trial
itself. I believe I should discuss this first with my
defense attorney.

Q. If there is any question in your mind about whether you
should go further in any interrogation by the Office of
United States Chief of Counsel, I think you should talk to
your counsel too. You have never been under any compulsion
to answer either before or since this indictment was served.
I think you will agree your treatment has been fair in all
the circumstances.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you now desire to see your defense counsel and then
send a message through your guard, if you are willing to
submit to further questioning?

A. Yes. I will do so.

Q. In view of a doubt in your mind as to whether you should
go forward any further with these interrogations, we will
suspend. I do want to point out, however, that confrontation
with documentary evidence has, of course, worked both ways.
It is to put you on notice of things that are evidence
against you and at the same time, to give you an opportunity
to explain, if there is any explanation. That will be all
for now.

A. And after I have talked to my defense counsel on Monday I
should report the result here, is that right?

Q. Only if you desire or are willing to be interrogated
further by the Office of the United States Chief of Counsel.

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