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         Nazi Conspiracy & Aggression, Supplement B
              "The Gestapo Never Harmed Anyone"
                                                 [Page 1303]

Excerpts from Testimony of Ernst Kaltenbrunner, taken at
Nurnberg, Germany, 5 October 1945, 1440-1465m by Lt. Smith
W. Brookhart, IGD, OUSCC. Also present: Nancy M. Shields,
BCV, Reporter; H.E. Mankiewitz, Interpreter.

Q. Let us consider what some of the officials think about
your personal responsibilities for Amt IV [The Gestapo] of
the RSHA [See footnote, page 1299 of this volume.], with
particular regard to repressive measures in the
concentration camps.

You have known Schellenberg a long time, haven't you?

A. Since 1943.

Q. And he has served in Amt VI [Foreign Political
Intelligence Service] during that period?

A. Yes.

Q. In his opinion, Kaltenbrunner was responsible in
conjunction with Mueller for all punishments and protective
arrests of important persons.

A. Will you let me face Schellenberg and some of his group
leaders and they will tell you that it is absolutely untrue.
Schellenberg must be the person who knows best what is the
connection between AMT IV and Himmler because Schellenberg
has been previously in the Gestapo himself.

Q. And was, therefore, responsible himself for some of the
punishments and atrocities that were committed?

A. I don't know. I don't know in what department of Amt IV
he was employed but he was fully aware of the authority and
he must have known very well that those authorities were not

Q. Amt IV, the Gestapo, was the active organization that
performed the repressive action and punishments and
executions in concentration camps, isn't that right?

A. This information is certainly wrong and I refer to my
statement in London and the reason is because I consider
Himmler himself responsible for these things.

                                                 [Page 1304]
Q. Who did the job locally? The Gestapo?

A. No, the concentration camps. The concentration camps
themselves and they only acted on the orders of Himmler,
Pohl, or Gluecks.

Q. Who, in concentration camps, inflicted punishment,
performed executions, gassed prisoners, and all the other
various atrocities?

A. That I could not say -- it must be men who were
subordinate to the commander of the camps.

Q. It was the Gestapo, and you know it was the Gestapo for
the most part!

A. The Gestapo most certainly had no man in concentration
camps who had ever done any harm to anyone.

Q. That is the best one yet!

A. You must make a mistake between the guards and the
Gestapo. That is something entirely different because the
guards of the concentration camps were not subordinate to
the Gestapo but to Pohl and that was entirely different.

Q. These guards were Deathshead SS, were they not?

A. Yes, but the Deathshead SS were not Gestapo. That is
proof that they were not Gestapo. The Deathshead
organization is the concentration camp guardsmen.

Q. And you say the dirty work was done by them, is that it?

A. Of course.

Q. How do you know that?

A.  Because there were no men in the concentration camps who
were subordinate to the Gestapo but the guards who were
there who were only subordinate to Pohl and over Pohl to
Himmler. Otherwise, the guards were subordinate to Mueller
and they were never subordinate to Mueller as things were.
Will you ask any man from the concentration camps if he has
ever been subordinated to the Gestapo and they will tell you
that they were not.

Q. Will he also tell you that when he had a mass killing to
perform that he had a few Gestapo brought in to do the job?

A. No, certainly not. The Gestapo had nothing to do with

Q. Are you sure?

A. I have never heard anything about it.

Q. Then how can you be so sure?

A. Certainly I am not sure but I would have heard something
about it. The concentration camps were not subordinate to
Amt IV and that must be known here, and this does not merely
include the buildings but all the staff who are subordinate
to Pohl.

                                                 [Page 1305]
Q. And all of those who performed the exterminations and
shooting and gassing and all the other means of killing, is
that right?

A. I don't know about this. I don't know who was carrying
out the shootings.

Q. You were being pretty positive about Pohl's
responsibility. I would like to have you carry it clear
through, for all the activities of the camp.

A. I have given a statement about concentration camps and
that is all. That is not known to me as secret knowledge,
but it is known to everybody else and I don't know any more.
I have made representations and I have called Hitler's
attention to certain conditions. I have repeatedly talked to
Hitler about his responsibilities, which he has charged
himself with, in these concentration camps.

Q. Hitler?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you say to Hitler, and what did he say to you?

A. His stereotypical answer was, "That is none of your
concern. That is my arrangement with Himmler and how Himmler
carried out his work is his own affair. He is responsible to

Q. On what dates did you have these conversations with

A. That was when I took office and then several times later.

Q. You have told us here frequently that you knew nothing
about concentration camps. How were you even well enough
informed to discuss it with Hitler?

A. As much as I knew about concentration camps I have put
down in my statement and that is as much as I discussed with
Hitler. Primarily I had to rely on the foreign press. In
this respect I saw the second big damage towards the Reich,
apart from the inhuman or humanitarian concern.

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