Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-207.02
Last-Modified: 2000/12/04

BY DR. STAHMER

Q. Did you never receive from Hitler an order or some
special authority to carry out preparations for
bacteriological warfare?

A. I have never received authority or an order of the kind
mentioned by General Schreiber of the Medical Service in his
letter to the Soviet Government.

Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that your medical
officers were working on preparations of this sort?

A. No, and this letter does not say anything about medical
officers, but merely that a Luftwaffe officer -

THE PRESIDENT: One minute. Will you just wait one minute? Go
on, Dr. Stahmer. You will confine yourself to the matters
with which you have dealt in your written application with
reference to Dr. Schreiber.

Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that the working
association "Bacteriological Warfare" existed?

A. That a working association existed I did not know. What I
did know, however, was that, as a matter of course,
defensive measures against bacteriological warfare were
discussed. It must not be forgotten that to a certain extent
this type of warfare had already begun against us by the
dropping of destructive potato beetles and so on. Measures
were taken, on the one hand, to carry out preparations for a
defence against such warfare; and then possibly - I do not
know this, but it is quite possible - preparations may have
been made to enable us to reply, should the enemy begin this
bacteriological war.

Q. Do you know Professor Blommen?

A. No.

Q. Then you did not commission him to prepare such measures?

A. That is hardly possible.

DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Do the prosecution desire to ask any
questions?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Defendant, I first want to know how
much of the witness Sievers's letter you agree with or
disagree with. Do you agree that the directions for carrying
out the spotted fever experiments were in the hands of the
director of the Hygienic Institute of the Reich University
of Strassburg,

                                                  [Page 279]

Professor Dr. Haagen, major in the Medical Corps, and
consulting hygienist to an air fleet? Is Sievers right in
saying that?

A. I have no means of checking that; it is possible.

I see. Now, are you disputing that Dr. Haagen was - I quote
- "commissioned with this task by the Reichsmarschall, the
President of the Reich Research Council," or do you again
say that you have no means of checking that?

A. I said quite clearly that I know nothing about it; and it
is interesting that he also speaks of the Reichsmarschall
and the President of the Reich Research Council, that is,
the heading under which all the thousands of research
commissions were ordered.

Q. To put it quite bluntly, your defence to this is the
rubber-stamp defence that your signature on the orders was
merely a rubber stamp for the equivalent signature as
President of the Reich Research Council? Is that what you
want the Tribunal to understand?

A. No, I am not saying that at all. If my signature was
given, then it had its full value; but it was not given; as
I said earlier, this was the heading, the letter-heading of
the commissions, which was ordered. These commissions were
signed by some subordinate department dealing with these
matters. If I signed a letter, I alone assume the
responsibility for it. It would be only too easy for the
prosecution to put such a letter before me or to question
Herr Haagen.

Q. Then you say that if instructions went out from the Reich
Research Council you knew nothing about them? That is your
answer as I understand it?

A. The details, of course, I did not know, because firstly,
that was impossible if only from the point of view of time;
my day, too, only had 24 hours.

Secondly, I emphasized that I was not an expert in any way,
but that my task was to give general instructions to the men
working in research, to centralise the research work. of
every sphere, and to provide the very large funds required.

Q. But you see, defendant, the letter goes on to say: "In
accordance with his instructions" - which were said to come
from the Reichsmarschall, the President of the Research
Council - "In accordance with his instructions, Dr. Haagen
has to report about his work to the Chief of the Luftwaffe
Medical Services."

A. That is possible; it is possible that he was given that
order. However, he did not report to me, and the Chief of
the Medical Inspectorate did not report to me either.

It is for that reason that my defence counsel applied to
have the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate appear here as a
witness in order to make this point abundantly clear.

Q. So that in both these capacities - in these two
capacities - the Reich Research Council and the Medical
Department of the Luftwaffe were both acting without your
knowledge? In these experiments which were concerned with
the condition of, among others, the service for which you
were responsible, you say both these bodies were acting
without your knowledge. That is what you say. Is that right;
are you sure it is right?

A. That is absolutely right. A short explanation, in this
connection ... Well, I am sorry, it is absolutely -

Q. Just a moment. I would like you to consider one or two
points before you commit yourself too deeply to that.

Do you know that in May of 1942 Field-Marshal Milch was
expressing your special thanks to the SS for their co-
operation in the altitude experiments?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, that is Document 343-PS,
and it is the letter that begins, "Dear Wolff." Wolff was
one of Himmler's personal staff. If my recollection is
correct, he was the liaison between Himmler and Hitler,
certainly, at one time.

                                                  [Page 280]

Q. (continuing.) And your second man, defendant, Field-
Marshal Milch; was expressing the special thanks from the
Supreme Commander of the Air Corps to the SS for their
extensive co-operation in the altitude experiments.

Are you saying that Field-Marshal Milch, when he wrote that
- or when he signed it on behalf of your medical department
- was merely expressing a chanson de malaise and was not
conveying your thanks to Himmler?

A. Not only am I saying it but Milch himself testified to
that quite clearly while he was on the witness stand; if you
will read the record you will find that he expressly
admitted that I had no knowledge of these details.

Apart from that I must mention that we employed a certain
method of correspondence which is perhaps not quite fitting
here, but it nevertheless existed. If a representative of a
Ministry wrote a letter of thanks which was not of a
personal nature he always had to express thanks on behalf of
the chief, in the name of the chief, and I think that rule
must exist everywhere.

Q. I just remind you; what the witness Milch said was that
these letters were put in front of him by your medical
department. These experiments mainly and greatly concerned
the Luftwaffe. Are you saying that the thanks of the
Luftwaffe and of the Supreme Commander, yourself, were given
without any reference to you at all?

A. Field-Marshal Milch did not say that the letters were put
before me, he said they were put before him.

Q. That is what I said; I said "before him." I did not
suggest they were put before you at all.

A. It probably came through incorrectly. Then he goes on to
say that he expressed his grateful thanks, because the
Inspectorate had told him that it was no longer interested
in the matter, since the high-altitude experiments had
already been carried out voluntarily by our young medical
officers, and he spoke about that at length.

Q. But, you know, it did not stop with your young medical
officers. Your service provided the equipment for Dachau for
these experiments.

A. The translation is not coming through.

Q. I will repeat that. It did not stop there. Your service
wag providing the equipment for these experiments for
Dachau.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, the reference to that is
Exhibit GB 582, Document 2428-PS, which is an affidavit by
the detainee Anton Pacholegg, who was at Dachau. He says
that the Luftwaffe delivered, here at the concentration camp
at Dachau, a cabinet constructed of wood and metal,
measuring one metre square and two metres high, and so on.
He describes the equipment.

Q. (continuing.) Are you saying that the supplying of
equipment for these experiments at Dachau was done without
any reference to you about these particular Air Force
experiments?

A. In the first place, it was not the Air Force which was
carrying out the experiments at Dachau, it was the medical
officer of the Air Force Reserve, Dr. Rascher. Whether Dr.
Rascher obtained the order to do so from the Medical
Inspectorate, and, if so, in what form, I do not know.

Secondly, it was not wood or various parts which were sent
there, but a so-called high-altitude chamber. That is the
thing I mentioned before, which every airman had to enter to
test the reaction of his body to altitude and pressure
conditions. It was not difficult for Rascher, therefore, to
go to the Inspectorate, to the Technical Inspectorate, and
ask for such a chamber without giving exact details of the
type of experiments for which he wanted to use it, and as to
whether his experiments entailed any danger for the people
subjected to them.

Thirdly, I should like to underline this again, the
prosecution has repeatedly said, and only lately justice
Jackson in his final speech emphasized especially,

                                                  [Page 281]

that I had had my fat fingers in every pie. I want to say
that if I held as many offices as I am being accused of
having held, then you will understand that I could not have
concerned myself with every high-altitude chamber used for
experiments.

O. But did you not concern yourself with the experiments to
test the flight clothing for the Luftwaffe when the
concentration camp detainees were dressed in various types
of flight suits with jackets? I mean, defendant, you have
been a practical airman yourself, with a very gallant record
of service in the air in the last war. What I am suggesting
to you is that these matters were matters that were not only
within your administrative interest in your position but
they were within your personal interest as an ex-air
officer. That is why I am suggesting to you that you would
have, and did have, an interest in these experiments.

Reflecting again, are you sure that you do not remember
about the experiments on these concentration camp detainees
for testing air clothing?

A. Sir David, I am not only absolutely sure that I do not
remember but I am absolutely sure that it was not so. I
emphasize that I am not saying I do not remember; I am
saying with absolute certainty that this was not so.

Secondly, you are quite right; naturally, I took the
greatest interest in the welfare of my airmen, and also in
their clothing. We airmen repeatedly discussed among
ourselves what the best type of combination would be. Had I
been told that heatable combinations would be used, then on
the strength of my own experience I would have said that I
did not want them, because at the end of the last war I
myself once wore such a heatable suit with the result that I
was badly burned.

Q. Well, now, take another experiment. It must have been the
same in your Airforce as in ours, that one of the greatest
difficulties, or one of the things that one wanted to deal
with, was that of those who came down into the sea: that is,
what could be done for them, and for what time they would
survive
Do you say that you did not know about the cold test?
According to this affidavit to which I have referred Dr.
Rascher conducted this cold test - that was for the
Luftwaffe also. That was to see the resistance of the human
body to immersion in water. Do you say that you knew nothing
about that experiment either?

A. I knew neither Dr. Rascher nor any of his experiments.
The symptoms caused by cold, when people fell into the
water, were known. Against freezing, there was an excellent
powder, or some such stuff. Moreover, I knew that everything
had been done to construct lifebelts in such a way that they
would facilitate breathing in spite of the sea waves, and so
on, and we also observed and studied the precautionary
measures, the clothing and the rescuing methods of our
opponents. I remember that I once held a pamphlet of that
type in my hand, but that is all.

Apart from that, people have been falling into the water for
years, and have always done the most suitable thing under
the circumstances: they have moved about, they have taken
alcohol, and so on, to get warm again.

Q. Well, now -

A. (interposing.) I beg your pardon, but there is one thing
to which I attach very great importance, and it is this: The
experiments with women, and so on, which were described here
are so utterly in contradiction to my views as regards
women, that I would have resented such experiments most
deeply, not only now, afterwards, but then, at the time.

Q. Well, now, just one other experiment, then I will pass to
the question of knowledge of these experiments at that time.
Did you or did you not know that the Sanitatswesen of the
Luftwaffe were, in May, 1944, working on experiments, in
which concentration camp inmates were used, to render sea-
water drinkable.

A. No, that I did not know. But I would like to explain how
it may have happened. Not even the Medical Inspectorate need
have known of it. An

                                                  [Page 282]
                                                            
order was given by the Inspectorate - and even assuming that
I had given that order - it does not at all follow that
experiments were carried out on human beings and endangered
their lives. If a medical officer of the Luftwaffe Reserve
had any sort of connection, let us say, with Himmler or his
Research Institute, but was also at the same time a member
of the SS, which was quite possible, then these were cross-
connections of which the Luftwaffe Medical Inspectorate need
not have known anything whatever. Not all methods of
procedure were reported to superior authorities.

Q. The first letter that I put to you was dated 26th May,
1942. You say that the facts which Field-Marshal Milch were
concerned with - I want to get it as exactly as possible -
were merely formal methods of conveying the facts of that
date? Do you remember that on 28th July, 1942, Hitler issued
a Fuehrer's Decree, countersigned by the defendant Keitel
and by the witness Lammers, establishing a Co-ordination
Staff for the Armed Forces to deal with health. That is on
28th July, 1942. It was to co-ordinate the coming tasks in
the field of health for the armed forces, the Waffen SS, and
subordinate organizations. And, if I may remind you so that
you may fix it in your memory, "for the purpose of a
comprehensive treatment of these offices, a sanitary officer
of the Navy and a sanitary officer of the Air Force will be
assigned to work under him" - that is the Sanitary Inspector
of the Army. Now, listen to this, "the latter, that is, the
sanitary officer of the Air Force, in a capacity as a Chief
of Staff"; that is the time when Field-Marshal Milch was
writing to Wolff about these experiments.

Two months later there was a Fuehrer Decree and one of your
officers was to be Chief of Staff of this Co-ordination-
Staff. Are you telling the Tribunal that you did not know
about the Fuehrer Decree or that your officer was so
appointed?

A. Before giving my answer, may I have a look at the decree?

Q. Would you like - ?

A. Yes, I should like to see it.

Q. I have only the English copy.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

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