The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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                                                  [Page 212]

TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTH DAY

FRIDAY, 16th AUGUST, 1946

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, yesterday, in answer to the
question of how long the re-direct examination would be, I
gave too long a time. After looking through the material, I
believe I can say that much of it has nothing to do with the
SA; and that I can abbreviate the examination considerably.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION OF WITNESS GUETTNER

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q. In connection with Document 4011, witness, I wanted to
ask you again about the report that 21 groups were engaged
in the transport of prisoners. How did the report originate
and at whose orders did these people transport the
prisoners; that is, were these people ordered by the SA to
transport prisoners, or was this activity carried out by
these men in their capacity as soldiers?

A. The report originated from the activity reports which the
groups made every month and later every three months. The
men were under the Wehrmacht for the purpose of guarding the
prisoners; the Wehrmacht selected and assigned them.

Q. Do you know the number of the SA men who were active here
as Wehrmacht members in connection with the transport of
prisoners?

A. I do not know the number. They were quite small units.

Q. The Prosecutor said yesterday that the so-called military
training was the same before and after the beginning of the
Second World War. I should like to ask you, Herr Guettner,
was shooting on a battle scale taught before 1st September,
1939, or was it only small calibre shooting?

A. Only small calibre shooting, such as was practised
previously. I said yesterday that soon after the beginning
of the war we laid more stress on defence sport exercises
and ordinary sport exercises; physical exercises took rather
a second place.

Q. Do you agree with the numerous affidavits which say in
this connection that it was forbidden in the SA to base
manoeuvres on military situations?

A. That was forbidden, and, further, we were not able to do
so because most of the SA had no previous military training
and could not base the exercises on military situations.

Q. Then a small historical question. In view of the
assertions of the prosecution in connection with the
statements on Page 14 of Document 4011, do you know, Herr
Guettner, when Memelland became part of the Third Reich? Do
you know, perhaps, that it was in March, 1939?

A. I cannot say exactly, but that is probably correct.

Q. Did the region of Memelland belong to Esthonia, Latvia
and Lithuania, or was it a part of the province of East
Prussia; I believe I can say the prosecution is confusing
the SA Group Ostland with the so-called Reichskommissariat.

A. I should like to say: In East Prussia, the SA Group
Ostland, we had an SA unit and we organized and directed it.
In the rest of Ostland, Lithuania, Latvia, etc., no German
SA was ever organized or directed by us. This question

                                                  [Page 213]

is probably connected with the documents from which excerpts
were read by the prosecution yesterday.

Perhaps I may explain to your Lordship that since the
beginning of the cross examination I have been in solitary
confinement and have had no contact with counsel for the SA.
For that reason, I believe I may be allowed to make the
following three brief statements in regard to the documents
presented yesterday, which contain monstrous and untrue
accusations against the SA leaders and the SA as an
organization:

(1) To such serious documents one cannot reply exhaustively
unless one has been able to look them over and check them
quietly. I was not able to do that.

(2) There were numerous documents, excerpts of which were
read, about which no questions were asked. For example, the
Blomberg letter.

(3) When the separate documents were submitted to me, only
questions were asked which had scarcely any connection with
the facts contained in them. For example, the report of
Brigade 50 regarding the destruction of the synagogues.

Even today I do not consider this report authentic, because
what is actually contained in it is impossible, and moreover
because what was done according to the report could not have
been carried out in view of the time. But I believe that the
questions of the defence will clear up any doubt.

Q. From Document 4011 the prosecution concludes that the SA
leadership concerned themselves with foreign peoples. In
this connection I should like to ask you if you did do that
and if that was ever your intention?

A. We in the SA did not concern ourselves with foreign
peoples and it was never our intention.

Q. Witness, you surely know the order of the Reich
Government that in the Reichskommissariat Ostland the
establishment of Party branches was prohibited. Could an SA
Group or SA Brigade "Vilna" therefore exist in Esthonia,
Latvia or Lithuania?

A. No, it could not exist, and we did not organize or
establish any. The men of the SA who were employed there
were not under the SA leadership. For example, the SA
Fuehrer Kunze and Kramer, who were mentioned yesterday, were
Fuehrer for special purposes. They were not under the SA
leadership when they were employed there. These men also
wore a different uniform from that of the SA. Perhaps the
confusion is due to this.

Q. Would you have violated such an order of the Reich
Government?

A. No, under no circumstances.

Q. Would it have been possible therefore for the SA to have
been entrusted with the administration of the ghetto in
Vilna?

A. The SA did not set up or administer ghettoes and neither
the SA as an organization nor the leadership was at any time
entrusted with such tasks.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, when you speak of an order of the
Reich Government, are you referring to a document?

DR. BOEHM: No, but to an order of the Reich Government which
is generally known.

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q. An affidavit of Herr Szloma Gold was submitted yesterday.
In that connection I should like to ask you briefly whether
the City Commissar of Vilna came under your jurisdiction in
any way. Could you give him orders, and did he carry out any
tasks on your instructions.

A. None of the Commissars in the Ostland were under the SA
leadership, and they did not receive orders therefrom. If I
remember rightly, women SA members were also mentioned
yesterday in connection with the Commissars. There were
never any woman members.

Q. Was the Provincial Commissar of Vilna ever under you?

                                                  [Page 214]

A. I have already said that the Commissars were not
subordinate to the SA leadership.

Q. This affidavit does not indicate whether the man
concerned is a Commissar. It merely says that the expert on
Jewish questions was an SA leader called Murer. Was he under
you in any way with respect to his activity in Vilna?

A. The personnel which worked with the Commissars was not
under the SA leadership either, and so the, same applies to
this man who is mentioned here. If he was employed there, he
was on leave from the SA for the duration of his assignment,
and he carried out his tasks and duties there without the SA
leadership being able to influence him in any way.

Q., In connection with the Indictment against another
organization, the prosecution submitted a document, Exhibit
USA 276. I shall quote from Page 2 of this document, the
last paragraph:

  "In the first hours after the entry, in spite of the
  considerable difficulties, native anti-Semitic forces
  were incited to pogroms against the Jews. Acting on
  orders, the Security Police was determined to use every
  means to solve the Jewish question."

In the case against the SD the prosecution says that it was
the Security Police who carried out the pogroms in Vilna,
Schaulen and Kovno. In the case against the SA, on the other
hand, the prosecution says that it was the SA. As defence
counsel, I should like to know which organization is
actually responsible for the Jewish pogroms in these cities,
and I ask you, did the supreme SA leadership, through orders
or instructions, have any part in any excesses or any
murders of the Jews in this district?

A. At no time and under no circumstances.

Q. And then an affidavit of a Mr. Chaim Kagan was submitted
yesterday. The witness asserts that he saw girls in SA
uniforms. Were there ever female SA members?

A. I have already answered that we did not have any female
SA members - never.

Q. Is the absurdity of this assignment of guilt in the
affidavit not made obvious by the fact that it asserts that
they were or must have been SA people because they wore a
brown uniform? This assertion is made repeatedly in this
affidavit.

A. In my testimony yesterday and the day before yesterday, I
pointed out several times that, in the course of years,
anyone who wore a brown shirt was always called an SA man.
That seems to be the case here too, although those concerned
had nothing to do with the SA.

Q. The same is true of the affidavit of Mr. Leib Kibart, who
also calls some of the people whom he mentions SA men and he
identifies them as SA men because they wore brown uniforms
with a swastika armband. Were not the swastika armband and
the brown uniform worn by all the other people and primarily
by those people who worked in the Eastern Ministry and were
engaged on duties connected with it? There was an East
uniform, was there not? Was this uniform worn by the SA, and
could it be confused with the uniform of the SA?

A. The East uniform was worn by those who were employed in
this task, and they were employed not by the SA but by the
Eastern Ministry. It was brown, and I believe that it had
the swastika armband, and, without doubt, like any other
brown uniform, it could be confused with the SA uniform.

Q. Document 1435-PS was submitted yesterday. It is a letter
from the Reich Commissar for the Ostland, written on 18th
June, 1943. What I wanted to ask you was: Did the Reich
Commissar for the Ostland ever come under you or the SA
Fuhrung at any time?

A. No. No Reich Commissars in the Ostland were under SA
leadership. They were under the Eastern Administration. The
SA leadership had no influence on them and that was not its
function.

                                                  [Page 215]

Q. Now I should like to show you the paragraph which
yesterday formed the subject of statements by the
Prosecutor, but which, in my opinion, was taken out of the
context. It reads:

  "On the order of the Chief - "

THE PRESIDENT: What is the reference?

DR. BOEHM: That is No. 1435-PS, Mr. President. It is the
second paragraph from the end in this document.

BY DR. BOEHM:

  "On orders of the Chief of Anti-Partisan Activity, SS
  Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach, units of the militia
  (Wehrmannschaften) took part in the undertaking. SA
  Standartenfuehrer Kunze led the Wehrmannschaften, which
  included 90 members of my group and of the District
  Commissariat Minsk. Our men returned yesterday from the
  undertaking without loss. I refuse to employ officials
  and Reich employees of the General Commissariat in the
  army rear area. The men employed by me were not deferred
  in order to combat partisans in the place of the
  Wehrmacht and the police. One railroad Wehrmannschafter
  was wounded (shot in the lungs)."

Does this not show clearly that these were railroad men and
officials formed into fighting commandos, to combat
partisans, as had to be by reason of the Soviet Russia
order? Could this have been an SA commando?

A. No, under no circumstances. They were called
Wehrmannschaften under an SA Fuehrer, named Kunze, who had
for some time been out of the active Leadership Corps of the
SA. He was a leader for a special purpose. He was in the
East. I know him, but I have just learned now that he was
employed in the East.

He was employed within the Eastern Administration but not as
an SA Fuehrer. If he trained Wehrmannschaften, they were not
SA Wehrmannschaften. There were not any there, and they were
not organized, trained or influenced by us in any way.

Q. Then it is probably correct if I assume that Kunze was an
official of the District Commissariat of the city of Minsk
and that he had nothing to do with the supreme SA
leadership?

A. That is correct.

Q. Through an affidavit of

THE PRESIDENT: Will you ask the witness, Dr. Boehm, what
"Wehrmannschaften" means literally?

DR. BOEHM: The witness already commented on that yesterday
by distinguishing between "SA Wehrmannschaften" and
"Wehrmannschaften" of the type mentioned here. Herr
Guettner, would you please -

THE PRESIDENT: I asked what the word meant literally.

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q. Witness, please explain to the President what you
understand by the term "Wehrmannschaften."

A. Your Lordship, I should like to distinguish between "SA
Wehrmannschaften" and "Wehrmannschaften" of the type
mentioned here. The "SA Wehrmannschaften," according to the
decree of Adolf Hitler of January, 1939 were to be set up by
the SA in the Reich from released soldiers, so that they
could be kept ready for defence physically and mentally. The
"Wehrmannschaften" mentioned here were given this
designation without our having anything to do with it and I
imagine that these "Wehrmannschaften" were men who formed
themselves into groups to combat partisans in occupied
territory.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness still has not told me what the
word means. It is a German word. All we want is the
translation. Is it possible to translate it?

                                                  [Page 216]

DR. BOEHM: If I may explain it I would say that it is a
group of persons determined to ward off an attack from any
side.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you agree with what your counsel has said,
or what the organization counsel has said as to the meaning
of the word?

THE WITNESS: I could give it another definition. It is a
unit under a leader, set up in this case for dealing with
enemy action in occupied territory that is behind the front,
a defence organization.

DR. BOEHM: I believe that it is necessary, Mr. President,
for me to demonstrate to you with the aid of Document 4011
the difference between "Wehrmannschaften" and "SA
Wehrmannschaften." In Document 4011, on Page 9, the Deputy
General Kommando IV says - in the third paragraph, last line
but one -

THE PRESIDENT: Page 9 of what?

DR. BOEHM: I thought I said 4011, Mr. President. It is the
third paragraph. The Deputy General Kommando IV A.K. speaks
of "SA Wehrmannschaften" and the same term is used on the
same page in the same document in paragraph 5. It is the
view taken by the Deputy General Kommando IV A.K. There it
also states: "While I was on duty with the 'SA
Wehrmannschaften' on 2nd June, 1940" - if he was referring
to the Wehrmannschaften of the SA then they were SA
Wehrmannschaften and they were explicitly designated as SA
Wehrmannschaften.


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