The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/11/29

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, in the interest of saving time,
would it be sufficient if two of these affidavits were used
and two of the witnesses were called for cross-examination?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I suggested three, since it
covers three towns, Vilna, Kaunas and Schaulen. I shall
willingly restrict myself.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will allow these affidavits to
be used in cross-examination provided the three deponents
are called for cross-examination. It would be most
convenient if they should be called directly after this
witness has been cross-examined and re-examined.

                                                  [Page 175]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I see that I am in a slight
difficulty about Schaulen, because both deponents who had to
go are to deal with the Schaulen episode. My Lord, I have a
witness - I am so sorry, it is my fault, I must admit, I
said Schaulen, it should have been Kaunas. I will do that,
my Lord, I will put the facts in the affidavit and I will
only use the affidavits in regard to Vilna and Schaulen; and
both the deponents are here.

THE PRESIDENT: Then the Marshal will have those witnesses
ready when the evidence of this witness is finished in order
that they may be called for cross-examination if Dr. Boehm
wants to question them.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, we will do so. They will be
here. I want to question the witness here with regard to
Vilna.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, I see it is now twenty-five
minutes to twelve. Before you do that, we had better recess.

(A recess was taken.)

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I have selected three of
these witnesses each to cover one of the towns: Szloma Gol,
who will deal with Vilna, Sigall who will deal with Kaunas,
and Kibart, who will deal with Schaulen.

My Lord, they are out of Court, so that they will not hear
the cross-examination, and are available when the time
comes.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I can waive the examination of
these witnesses. I have no objection if these affidavits are
used, because in this connection I can clarify the facts of
the case with the witness Kibart in cross-examination. These
people had nothing whatever to do with the SA, and the
witness Juettner will clear up the matter. They were
officials in the Ministry for Eastern Affairs, and they were
no more regarded as SA men there than one could regard a
soldier in the Wehrmacht, for example, as an SA man, once he
is a soldier in the Wehrmacht, although he had formerly been
in the SA. Therefore, I attach no importance to the
examination of these witnesses.

I shall waive the examination of these witnesses.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

Then, Sir David, we do not think they need be called if Dr.
Boehm does not want them.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I am of course, entirely in
Dr. Boehm's hands, and those of the Tribunal. I want it
known that the prosecution has no objection to calling them,
and that they are ready to give evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: You can use the affidavits.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If your Lordship pleases.

BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:

Q. Witness, have you a copy in German of D-964?

A. D-964; yes.

Q. That is the affidavit of a Mr. Gol. I have read the first
and second paragraphs. If you will look at the third
paragraph, it says:

  "In December, 1943, 80 Jews from the ghetto, including
  four women and myself and my friend Josef Belie, were
  ordered by an SA Sturmfuehrer, whose name I forget, to
  live in a large pit some distance from the town. This pit
  had originally been dug for an underground petrol tank.
  It was circular, 60 metres in diameter, and 4 metres
  deep. When we lived in it the top was partially covered
  with boarding, and there were two wooden rooms
  partitioned off, also a kitchen and lavatory. We lived
  there six months altogether before we escaped. The pit
  was guarded by SA guards about whom I give details
  below."

                                                  [Page 176]

You will see in paragraph 5 that he says that the "SA men
threw chains into the pit, and the Sturmbannfuehrer ordered
the Jewish foreman (for we were a working party) to fasten
the chains on us. The chains were fastened round both ankles
and round the waist. They weighed 2 kilos each, and we could
only take small steps when wearing them. We wore them
permanently for six months. The SA said that if any man
removed the chains he would be hanged. The four women were
not chained."

Then, before we come to the work, I would just like you to
look at paragraph 10, because that describes the guards:

  "The work of digging up the graves and building the pyres
  was supervised and guarded by about 80 men. Of these,
  over 50 were SA men, in brown uniforms, armed with
  pistols and daggers and automatic guns (the guns being
  always cocked and pointed at us). The other 30 guards
  consisted partly of Lithuanians and partly of SD and SS.
  In the course of the work, the Lithuanian guards
  themselves were shot, presumably so that they should not
  say what had been done. The commander of the whole place
  was the SA officer Murer (the expert on Jewish questions)
  but he only inspected the work from time to time. The SA
  officer Legal actually commanded on the spot. At night
  our pit was guarded by 10 or 12 of these guards."

Then he says that the guards "hit us and stabbed us" and
that he was knocked over a pile of bodies and that they were
only allowed to go sick for two days; if they went sick for
more than that they were shot. Then he says in paragraph 12,
that "of 76 men in the pit, 11 were shot at work."

Now I would like you to look very shortly at paragraphs 6,
7, 8 and 9, which describe the work. Paragraph 7 says that
"the work consisted of digging up mass graves and piling up
bodies on to funeral pyres and burning them. I was engaged
in digging up the bodies. My friend Belic was engaged in
sawing up and arranging the wood."

Paragraph 8 says:

  "We dug up altogether 68,000 bodies. I know this because
  two of the Jews in the pit with us were ordered to keep
  count of the bodies by the Germans; that was their sole
  job. The bodies were mixed, Jews, Polish priests, Russian
  prisoners of war. Amongst those that I dug up I found my
  own brother. I found his identification papers on him. He
  had been dead two years when I dug him up because I know
  that he was in a batch of 10,000 Jews from Vilna ghetto
  who were shot in September, 1941."

And then he describes the procedure for making a funeral
pyre of layers of wood and bodies and throwing oil over it
and burning it.

Are you telling the Tribunal that you never heard of what
had gone on at Vilna or that there were any SA personnel
concerned in it?

A. I have the following statement to make about this. With
the guarding of the ghetto  -

Q.  First of all, before you make a statement, will you
answer my question: Do you say that you never heard of these
happenings in Vilna or that the SA were concerned in them?

A. I maintain that most decidedly. I heard about them today
for the first time. Moreover, I had nothing to do with these
things and we had no SA in Lithuania. We had tried to build
up the SA only in the former Government General, from SA
candidates and Germans. We did not organize any SA in
Lithuania. Neither the SA leadership nor the SA organization
ever had anything to do with guarding ghettoes and these
atrocities, if they are supposed to have taken place and
must be stigmatised as such. But I could well imagine that a
misuse of SA uniforms and membership was practised here too,
namely by Lithuanians.

Q. I see. Your explanation is that they have mistaken
somebody wearing a brown shirt. Is that your explanation?
Probably wearing a swastika on his arm

                                                  [Page 177]

just to make it more difficult. You are really telling the
Tribunal, who have been sitting here for nine months
listening to what has happened in these territories, that
your explanation is that somebody has mistaken other people
wearing brown shirts. Is that your explanation?

A. It is one of the explanations which I gave before.

Q. I only want to put in - I need not occupy time by putting
it to the witness in view of what he said - Document 975 as
an additional declaration of Mr. Gol. It will therefore
become Exhibit GB 598, and it explains the procedure by
which the gold teeth were taken out of corpses. My Lord, I
do not think it is necessary to go into detail because your
Lordship has heard in detail of how that procedure was
carried out, how it was done normally. We will just say that
the man Murer personally took the boxes with him. Now I am
going to come to Kaunas or Kovno. I want you just to tell
me: Do you say that you do not know an SA Brigadefuehrer
called Kramer, who was Governor of Kaunas?

A. We have not previously mentioned SA Brigadefuehrer
Kramer. Mr. Prosecutor, I know an SA Brigadefuehrer -

Q. We are mentioning him now and I am asking you, do you say
or do you not say that you do not know an SA Brigadefuehrer
called Kramer who was Town Governor of Kaunas or Kovno, a
very well-known place?

A. Kovno is thoroughly well known to me, I agree with you,
there. But the name - I should like to know whether you said
Kahmer or Kramer?

Q. Kramer. He was the German Town Governor and an SA
Brigadefuehrer - Kramer.

A. I know a Brigadefuehrer Kramer. Whether he was the Town
Governor of Kovno I do not know.

Q. Do you know an SA Hauptsturmfuehrer called Jordan?

A. No.

Q. And do you not know that the Town Governor's office in
Kaunas was exclusively staffed by SA, even the girls in the
office belonging to the SA women's section, wearing SA brown
shirts with swastika? Do you say that you never heard of
that?

A. We had no SA in Kaunas. I do not know of any SA offices
there, either. If somebody named Kramer, who was supposed to
be an SA leader, was working there, then he was not working
as an SA leader. The SA had nothing to do with the whole
matter. I should particularly like to emphasize that once
more very strongly.

Q. Well, now, let me put two more of these names to you. Do
you know an SA Brigadefuehrer called Lenzen?

A. A Brigadefuehrer Lenzen formerly worked with the Reich
Sports Leader. I became acquainted with him there.

Q. Did you know that Lenzen was Commissioner for the Rural
District around Kaunas?

A. If Lenzen was Commissioner for Rural Districts he was not
used there by the SA, as an SA leader, but came within the
organization of the Ministry for Eastern Affairs, and so was
not under the SA, if he was working there.

Q. I see. Do you say that you had not an SA section, I do
not know whether it would be a company or a smaller unit,
guarding prisoners of war near Kaunas? You have told us, you
see, that you had these units who were supporting the
Wehrmacht in these territories. Are you answering that there
was not an SA unit guarding prisoners of war near Kaunas?

A. We did not organize any SA units near Kaunas. I cannot
say any more about that. We organized SA in the former
Government General, but apart from that we organized no SA
in the East except in West Prussia, and in what was formerly
Posen. Consequently, no SA could have been there.

                                                  [Page 178]

THE PRESIDENT: For the sake of accuracy, Sir David, I do not
think he said they had SA units supporting the Wehrmacht in
these territories near Kaunas.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: No, my Lord, I think "in the East"
were the words, my Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: I thought he said "within the Reich area."

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: It was in this report. I will check
it. I am so sorry, my Lord, if I have made a mistake. My
Lord, what he said was

THE PRESIDENT: Have you got it there, Sir David? Referring
to 23rd June, 1941, that is the report, he said: "That is
the home country. We had 21 groups guarding prisoners of war
in the German Reich area. I mean in what was Germany before
the war. I know nothing of the Baltic Provinces."

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I agree entirely with that.
Your Lordship will remember that he goes on to say in the
report itself at the top of Page 127, that there were two
groups, one at Danzig and another at Posen. Then he said the
territory of Upper Silesia was assigned to unit Silesia and
the territory of Memel and Suwalki to the Baltic Provinces
(Ostland) unit. That was what I had in mind, that there was
a Baltic Province Ostland.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, he said in the report

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, my Lord, I agree it was not
quite the same before he put in the report. My Lord, in view
of that I will just briefly indicate. the contents of this
affidavit to your Lordship as the witness says that apart
from knowing two of the people he does not know anything
about it. First, the deponent says he lived in the ghetto of
Kaunas during the German occupation and that he was on the
Jewish council of the ghetto dealing with statistics and
supplies. As . representative of the Jews -

THE PRESIDENT: We have not got this document.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Oh, have you not, my Lord, I am so
sorry. It is D-968, Exhibit GB 599. I am very sorry, my
Lord, it is my fault.

THE PRESIDENT: It is in the book, is it?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: It is in the book, it is 61.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes..

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, he goes on to say: "As
representative of the Jews for rations, etc., I had to deal
directly with the Town Governor's Office (Hauptsturmfuehrer
SA Jordan's section). The Town Governor's office was
exclusively staffed by the SA, even the girls in the office
wore brown SA uniforms." Then he says: "The German Town
Governor was called Kramer, and he was a Brigadefuehrer SA.
Jordan was the Adviser on Jewish Affairs to Kramer. I know
their ranks and that they were in the SA, because they
signed the orders which were posted on the ghetto." Then in
paragraph 3 he describes the plundering operation. He says:
"It was done exclusively by SA men, Jordan was with them.
They all wore brown uniforms." They took their property and
shot 27 people and then on 13th September, that is, in the
middle of the raid, Jordan and Sturmfuehrer SA Kepen, with
Brigadefuehrer Lenzen, who was Commissioner for the Rural
District of Kaunas, standing by, shot three men in his
presence. Then he says:

  "On 21st or 22nd September, 1941, I was in a labour
  detachment. I saw about 30 SA men in uniform conducting a
  group of some 300 Russian prisoners of war. The Russians
  were quite exhausted, they could barely walk ... Two
  collapsed and the SA shot them. The SA were beating them
  all the time. My labour detachment had to bury these
  Russians."

Then, my Lord, paragraph 7 just shows a piece of what one
might call silly, but organized brutality, making the men
march out and carry weights for a distance.

                                                  [Page 179]

You will notice that there were about 100 SA men guarding
the Jews, armed with automatic pistols.

Then, in paragraph 8:

  "On 28th October, 1941, there was a big 'action' on, in
  which 10,500 people from the ghetto were shot. The ghetto
  population was first divided into two groups, those for
  execution and those who were allowed to stay. The sorting
  was supervised in the morning by a man called Rauka, who
  was, I think, in the Gestapo or the SD, and later in the
  day three prominent SA men, Jordan, Kepen and Poschl,
  came to help him. All these SA men were in uniform. I
  know the number of those who were shot because my job on
  the Jewish Council included the rationing for which we
  had tales a census of the Jews. A new census was taken
  after these executions."

And next it says how Jordan told him to go and get twenty
bodies of the people he had just shot; and paragraph 10 says
that Jordan asked for 530 intellectuals to work on archives;
he was told they were not available. "Thereupon the SA
(assisted by others in German uniform which I cannot
identify for certain, but I think it was SD) seized and shot
530 people at random. The SA personnel present included
Jordan, Poschl and Lenzen." My Lord, that is Kaunas.

Now, my Lord, the next town, the other one with which I
wanted to deal, is Schaulen, which your Lordship will find
in Document D-969 at Page 63 in the same document book. It
becomes Exhibit GB 600, and is an affidavit by a deponent,
Leib Kibart.


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