Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-202.04
Last-Modified: 2000/11/29

Q. Can you tell me who, from the beginning, furnished the
guards at Dachau?

A. As far as I know, Dachau was an SS camp entirely. The SA
was never active in Dachau.

                                                  [Page 131]

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, for the present I have no more
questions to put to this witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON:

Q. Witness, you probably know it already, but if you do not,
you may take it from me that in the last eight months this
Tribunal has heard a great deal of evidence about
concentration camps. Do you deny, now, that even in 1933
concentration camps were regarded throughout Germany with
terror?

A. I did not quite understand the question.

Q. I will state it again. Do you deny that even in 1933
concentration camps were regarded by people throughout
Germany with terror?

A. Anyone who is arrested naturally feels horrified, for the
loss of freedom alone compels him to have a feeling of that
sort. But there was no reason, at that time, to be horrified
by the thought of being interned in a concentration camp.

Q. You have spoken, this morning, about the Reichstag
deputy, Herr Gerhard Seger. He wrote a book on the
Oranienburg concentration camp. I am not going to talk on
that book, but do you remember that the title of it was A
Nation Terrorized? Do you remember that title?

A. No.

Q. Do you consider that that was a reasonable title to give
a book on Oranienburg?

A. No.

Q. Would it have been a reasonable title to give about the
concentration camps at Wuppertal or Hohenstein?

A. I cannot make any statements in that respect. I never
knew Wuppertal, and as far as Hohenstein is concerned I
only, know that the severest measures were taken there when
abuses were discovered. Later I learned that the leading men
of the concentration camp Hohenstein were sentenced to long
terms of penal servitude and imprisonment.

Q. You know, too, those severe penalties were reduced in the
most serious cases to about half the sentence? Do you not
know that?

A. No. That is unknown to me.

Q. You know that the number of people who were sentenced in
Hohenstein was twenty-five and that the official report
about it said that they were not all those who took part in
the excesses, but only the most prominent ones? Did you know
that?

A. I do not know the particulars. I know only that at that
time very severe and strict measures were taken.

Q. And did you know at that time about the atrocities which
were going on in Wuppertal and in Hohenstein? You knew about
it at that time, did you not?

A. No.

Q. You knew that those camps, or at any rate you know now
that those camps were run by the SA? Is that right?

A. No. I did not know that either.

Q. You did not know they were run by the SA?

A. No. I did not know that.

Q. Witness, I want you to look at a document - which is 787-
PS, my Lord, in Book 16A, at Page 16. That is a letter
written by Dr. Guertner, the Reich Minister of Justice, to
Hitler, and he describes at the beginning of the letter the
maltreatment of prisoners in Hohenstein, including torture
by a drip apparatus. If you look towards the end of the
letter - I should think it is about ten lines from the end -
you will see they are talking about the principal SA
offender, one Vogl  - he says: "By his actions he supported
the convicted SA leaders and men in their deeds."

That shows that Hohenstein atrocities were done by SA men,
does it not?

                                                  [Page 132]

A. I am afraid that in one brief minute I cannot read
through a document five pages long. I should like to say
that I learned only afterwards that severe measures were
taken against the SA leaders and against the SA men who had
perpetrated crimes in Hohenstein. I should also like to
point out that it was the Minister of Justice, Dr. Guertner
himself, who took me over into his Strafvollzug as an SA
leader known to him personally. That shows that he did not
regard as general the matters which in this letter he is
reporting to the Fuehrer as an isolated case. These are
isolated cases, and the criminals concerned in them received
their due punishment.

Q. Witness, if you say you do not know what went on in
Hohenstein and Wuppertal at that time, let me ask you this:
You knew Guertner fairly well, did you not? .

A. Yes.

Q. You knew Kerrl fairly well, did you not?

A. Yes.

Q. Kerrl was Lutze's uncle, was he not?

A. (No response.)

Q. Was Kerrl not Lutze's uncle?

A. I know that he was a relative of Lutze, what relation I
do not know.

Q. And he was a very fervent Nazi, too, was he not - Kerrl?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Did you not talk with him about these concentration
camps, these other concentration camps? You were the
commandant of the first concentration camp at Oranienburg.
Did you not talk to him about the others that were springing
up, the other concentration camps?

A. No.

Q. Did you talk to Guertner about them?

A. There was no reason for that, either.

I should like to explain in this connection that it was the
Prussian Minister of Justice, Kerrl, who, after numerous
visits to Oranienburg, selected me, on the basis of the fact
that Oranienburg appeared to be under a decent and orderly
command, to be commandant of the penitentiaries.

Q. We will come to that in a minute. I am suggesting to you
now that it was just because of the interest that Kerrl took
in you that he did in fact later appoint you to your
position with the Strafgefangenenlager. It was just because
of that I am suggesting that you might have talked the whole
problem out with him. Did you or did you not?

A. Only in so far as it concerned the camp Oranienburg.

Q. I see.

A. I remember -

Q. Did you talk to Count Helldorf, the Police President,
about the general problem of concentration camps?

A. Also only in so far as it concerned Oranienburg, and in
that case, extensively.

Q. I see. Now you say that none of these terrors and
atrocities went on in Oranienburg; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I have here an affidavit which Rudolf Diehls has
sworn this morning since you started your evidence, and I
will read a little of it to you, and you can tell me if it
is true or not.

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: My Lord, this is Document 976;
It becomes GB 595.

BY MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON:

Q. Rudolf Diehls says:

  "I received from various individuals complaints about ill-
  treatment by SA men in concentration camps. I learned
  that SA guards had badly ill

                                                  [Page 133]

  treated the following persons in the concentration camp
  Oranienburg: Herr Ebert, son of the former
  Reichsprasident; Ernst Heilmann, the leader of the
  Prussian Social Democrats; the Reichstag Prasident Paul
  Loewe and the Oberpraesident Lukaschek."

Then he goes on to say: "I myself gained confirmation of
these ill-treatments on the occasion of an inspection tour
through the camp Oranienburg. At that time the commandant
was SA leader Schaefer. For a short time, conditions
improved after my interference; then they deteriorated
again. I myself did not succeed in removing Schaefer, since
he was backed by the SA leadership."

Is that true or is it not? Did your men ill-treat Herr
Ebert, Herr Heilmann, Paul Loewe, and Lukaschek? Did they
ill-treat them or did they not?

A. May I be permitted to give the following explanation on
this point -

Q. Say yes or no.

A. That I cannot do.

Q. Kindly give an explanation.

A. I cannot give an explanation in this form. Herr Loewe was
never an inmate of Oranienburg; Herr Lukaschek, to my
knowledge, also never was an inmate at Oranienburg. Herr
Diehls is definitely mistaken in these cases. It is true,
however, that the son of the Reichsprasident Ebert was an
inmate, and it is also true that Herr Heilmann was an inmate
there. But I should like to explain that both of those
gentlemen, Ebert as well as Heilmann, were maltreated by
other inmates after their arrival, and I personally saw to
it that they were taken away from the group of inmates who
had maltreated them.

Ebert himself was released very soon, after a few weeks of
internment. He and Heilmann never complained to me
personally. I learned of their ill-treatment at the hands of
other inmates from a third party and I took steps
immediately to prevent such things from happening again.

Q. You said before the Commission, witness, that it was your
endeavour in the Oranienburg concentration camp to try to
give the inmates a life consistent with human dignity. Do
you remember saying that to the Commissioner, "a life
consistent with human dignity"? And is that the kind of life
you gave to Ebert and Heilmann?

A. (No response.)

Q. I presume the answer is yes, is it not?

A. I cannot answer this question so simply, either. I did
not say that for Heilmann and Ebert I brought about
conditions consistent with human dignity, but I remember
clearly saying just now that I saw to it that they were not
subjected to further maltreatment at the hands of other
inmates.

Q. I did not ask you what you said just now; I asked you
what you said before the Commission. And you said before the
Commission that you endeavoured to give the inmates a "life
consistent with human dignity," did you not?

A. Yes, of course.

Q. Do you remember saying it or not?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you give Heilmann and Ebert a life consistent with
human dignity?

A. Yes.

Q. You did?

A. I never withheld from them anything consistent with human
dignity. Of course, they led a life like that of any other
inmate in a camp of that sort -

Q. Yes, but you said  -

A. A. And it is surely quite understandable -

Q. You know that this was supposed to be a camp for
prominent persons in considerable numbers, according to your
own evidence, and you said that you

                                                  [Page 134]

wanted to give them all a life of human dignity. But let us
not waste any time on this. Let me show you your own book.

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: My Lord, this is Document 2824-
PS, and it is Exhibit USA 423. That is the book written by
the witness, entitled Oranienburg Concentration Camps,
published in 1934

BY MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON:

Q. I want you to look first of all, witness, at Page 123.

A. Yes, I have the page.

Q. Now, that is a page where you wrote in rather a sarcastic
vein about the people who came into the camps. Do you see
the very short passage where you say - and I think this sums
up perhaps your whole attitude as to the object of your
camp: "The moment had at last come when our old SA men could
refresh the memory of some of these provocateurs who had
been especially in the foreground politically." Do you see
that?

A. (No response.)

Q. Well, the translation may not be exactly as it comes in
your book; but do you see the passage? It is marked between
brackets.

A. Yes, I have found this passage.

Q. Well, what do you mean by your old SA men refreshing the
memories of some of these provocateurs? I thought you said
just now that it was the other inmates of the concentration
camps who refreshed their memory. It is your own SA men, is
it not, who refreshed the memory of Ebert and Heilmann?

A. I would like to -

Q. Well, you wrote it, you know. Let me refresh your memory
a bit. Turn to Page 173.

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: My Lord, I am sorry that
these, passages have not been translated. I only had them
looked up this morning.

THE PRESIDENT: You ought to let him answer the other
question you put to him on Page 123.

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: I beg your Lordship's pardon.
I did not realize he wanted to say something.

BY MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON:

Q. Witness, you wanted to say something about the passage on
Page 123. Do you?

A. Yes, yes. This sentence is taken out of its context. To
understand this sentence clearly, one would have to read the
whole paragraph. The way in which it is taken out of its
context - and please understand me correctly - in your
sense, in the sense of the prosecution -

Q. Well, give the Tribunal briefly the sense of the context.
Tell us what the sense of the context is.

A. I cannot, of course, explain the whole context, since you
only read this one sentence to me. But I should like to say
one thing, that when I spoke of human dignity, I did not
mean it in an ambiguous but in the perfectly obvious sense;
this sentence, taken out of its context, does not prove the
opposite.

Q. Well, I will leave that passage then. Will you now turn
to Page -

THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean? What is the context? What
is the context from which it is torn? What do you mean by
"refreshing their memories"?

A. If it please the High Tribunal, may I perhaps for my own
information quickly re - read the context. I no longer have
my book so completely in mind, and to answer this question I
must first read through these lines; then I can give the
answer which your Lordship desires.

THE PRESIDENT: You are saying, are you not, you do not know
what you mean by "refreshing their memories"?

                                                  [Page 135]

A. Yes.

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