Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-201.09
Last-Modified: 2000/11/19

Q. Was punishment inflicted in the SA? Was there a penal
code and why was it necessary?

A. There was a penal code in the SA and there were
punishments. The SA had to have these in order to maintain
discipline and order in its ranks. One must consider that in
the SA we had people from all sections of the population,
and that especially after the seizure of power we received
an enormous number of people into our ranks, all of whose
characters we were not acquainted with, so disciplinary and
penal codes had to be created in order to maintain order and
discipline. There was no punishment with imprisonment in the
SA. So-called arrest sentences were provided for which were
intended primarily for the schools. During my service, I
never needed to use them.

Q. From the fact of the existence of a penal code, can one
not conclude a military character of the SA?

A. Not according to my opinion. One must have punishments
and penal codes in any organization.

Q. What other regulations were there in the SA?

A. There was a general service regulation in the SA;
especially the salute regulation, the uniform regulation,
the medical regulation, and the drill order.

Q. Why was this drill regulation necessary? Must one not
conclude a military character of the SA from it?

A. The drill regulation was a regulation for exercise. It
was introduced into the SA in order that the marching units
should make a good impression. These exercises were for the
appearance, the bearing of the men, and were primarily to
have an effect on the marching discipline. A comparison with
the service regulations of the Army is not possible, for, as
far as I am acquainted with these regulations of the Army,
they include drill with arms and sham battles, while we had
only physical exercises for attaining good marching
discipline.

Q. Was there not an SA Sport or some other insignia for
special training?

A. There was an SA Sport Insignia. After 1939, after the
decree of 19th January, it was called the Defence Insignia
(SA Wehrabzeichen). This SA Sport or Defence Insignia was an
award for achievement just like the German Sport and
Athletic Insignia. It included Group 1, so-called physical
exercises, that is, achievements of a physical nature; Group
2, defence sport exercises for training the will-power; and
Group 3, occupational service, water sports, and special
task - straining of the mind. Those are the exercises that
were taught and practised.

                                                  [Page 110]

This Defence Insignia had the purpose of achieving moral
fitness (Wehrhaftigkeit) among the SA.

Q. What do you mean by "moral fitness"?

A. By that I mean there was taught in the schools a mental
attitude in the sense of strong patriotic conviction, the
training of the men for defence and for self-consciousness,
and finally the maintaining of physical strength through
bodies trained in sports.

Q. Was the execution of the tasks of the Sport Insignia
immediately possible on a large scale, or was special
preparation necessary?

A. The execution of these exercises for the SA Sport
Insignia required an extensive preparation. It was clear
that to achieve this insignia, the people had to be taught
by competent men and leaders and that supervision had to be
taught first before the exercises for the acquisition of
this insignia could be carried out on a broad basis. In
addition, for carrying out the work connected with this
insignia we often lacked the necessary means, above all in
the country. Thus it happened that after the re-
establishment of this Sport Insignia in 1935 the Sport
Insignia could only make its way into the masses of the SA
men very gradually and year after year. In addition, the
work for this Sport or Defence Insignia was not the main
task which we had in the SA, but taking this test was more
or less voluntary and considered supplementary.

Q. Are training and the discipline of this Defence Sport
Insignia to be judged from a military point of view?

A. In my opinion, this insignia is not to be judged from a
military point of view but, as I said, it is to be judged
like the Reich Sport Insignia, as an insignia of
achievement. Essentially it included the discipline which
was required for the acquisition of German Sport Insignia or
was at the basis of any other sport discipline, such as that
required for the Olympic Games.

Q. The prosecution asserts that such activities played a
great role in the defence of the country. What do you have
to say to that?

A. Possibly, but only to the extent that all functions of
civil life play a certain role in the defence of a country.

Q. Did attendance at the SA schools entail any military
qualifications? What schools were there in the SA?

A. There were four possibilities of training in the SA.
First, the so-called week-end training, covering free
Saturdays and Sundays. At these week-end courses the lower
ranks, the Scharfuehrer and Truppfuehrer were primarily
trained. This was a so-called elementary training for the
lower units and could be quite brief according to
circumstances and necessity. The next training school was
the so-called SA Gruppenschule (Group School), that is
within the district of a group. It was for the Sturmfuehrer
and lasted about two weeks. At the so-called SA
Gruppenschulen the purpose of the training was the
strengthening of comradeship amongst the Sturmfuehrer, to
introduce them into general SA service in their storm units,
to instruct them briefly in sport activities and at the same
time to make them acquainted with the discipline of the
Sport or Defence Insignia. Furthermore, questions of the day
were discussed, a brief general intellectual education was
given, and, finally, they were given an examination on their
achievements, ability and character. The next training
school was the Reichschule (Reich School). This was
primarily for the secondary leaders, the Sturmbannfuehrer
and Standartenfuehrer. The training was more or less the
same as at the Gruppenschulen only one step higher.
Generally there was an examination of the ability and
achievement of the individual and of his character, and an
introduction to the SA service at the rank represented.
These schools were also -

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, cannot you condense this a little
bit? We have got all this. You are going straight through
the examinations as far as I can make out, when you know we
do not want that.

                                                  [Page 111]

DR. BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President, I will try to condense it a
little.

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q. The prosecution asserts that 25,000 officers were trained
in these schools. What do you have to say to that? Officers
for the Wehrmacht, of course.

A. SA Fuehrer were never trained as officers of the
Wehrmacht at these schools. Only SA Fuehrer were trained and
no one else.

Q. Were drills with arms carried out at these schools?

A. No, none at all.

Q. The prosecution alleges further that seventy per cent of
the militarily trained men of the SA, were sent to the
Wehrmacht. What do you have to say to that?

A. According to the German Defence Law, every German had to
do his military service no matter to what organization he
belonged. The SA did not train any soldiers. In 1940, I
myself served in the Wehrmacht as a simple soldier and
worked myself up to an officer, although I was active as an
inspector of the SA Gruppenschulen.

Q. Did the Wehrmacht have an opportunity to influence these
schools in any way?

A. No, the Wehrmacht had no opportunity to influence these
schools and no right to inspect the schools.

Q. Tell me, witness, what do you understand by political
soldiership and "spiritual" arming (wehrgeistiger Erziehung)
in the SA?

A. Political soldiership means the general attitude and
bearing of the men connected with a clear political
conception. Spiritual arming was training in the fundamental
physical, mental, and spiritual bearing, nothing else.

Q. You are acquainted with the decree of the Fuehrer of 1939
on pre-military and post-military training of the SA. How
about this order? Was it carried out or not?

A. This order of 19th January was not carried out.
Immediately after the outbreak of war, when all the
preparations for the execution of this order were far from
being concluded, the Commander-in-Chief of the Army repealed
it and postponed it until the end of the war. When this
order was published on 19th January Chief of Staff Lutze
intended to make an experimental beginning of this training
on the 1st October, but he did not put it into execution. At
the beginning of the war everything still remained in an
experimental and preparatory state.

Q. Can the decree of the Fuehrer of 19th January, 1939, be
interpreted to mean that it followed in a logical
development of the work of the SA before 1939?

A. As I could see it, no. The state of training of the SA
when the decree was issued was not such that one could speak
of an analogous continuation. Our whole training from 1934
to 1939 was only a general sport training. Otherwise, in my
opinion, there would have been no need for any agreement
between the SA and the Commanders-in-Chief of the three
branches of the Wehrmacht. In the second place, we could
have begun. immediately after the 19th January, and in the
third place, the training of the SA Fuehrer, as far as I
know, had not sufficiently progressed by about eighty per
cent to enable them to fulfil even the slightest military
demands. These leaders would no doubt first have had to
learn to the Army what had to be done for this training or
the post-military training.

Q. Can one say that in the field of pre-military and post
military training, as originally ordered, anything practical
ever took place?

A. In my opinion, no. In the first place, this order was
given only on 19th January, not before, and it was never
carried out. In the second place, it could not be, because
it was to begin only on the 1st October. No men could come
back, since the war had really begun on the 1st September.
Only preparations of a technical and financial nature were
made - particulars are not known to me - and perhaps the
general considerations of how and in what way this order
could be carried out.

                                                  [Page 112]

Q. And then an order was given that this activity concerning
pre-military and post-military training of SA members should
be stopped?

A. As far as I know, both the Commander-in-Chief of the Army
and the Party Chancellery ordered that this measure was to
be put aside, and if I recall rightly, this letter of the
Party Chancellery further included instructions that due to
difficulties connected with the youth organizations and with
the Party units concerning the carrying out of the decree by
the SA alone this whole decree of 79th January, was to be
reviewed and perhaps given up entirely.

Q. Did the SA have the- financial possibilities for creating
training opportunities, particularly in the special units?

A. The SA had very meagre means. For example, an SA Sturm
had 80 to 720 marks. A Standarte had about 800 to 1,200
marks. An SA Gruppe had about 2,500 to 3,500 marks. I cannot
say exactly. These amounts were just sufficient for covering
the immediate needs of the offices. We had hardly any funds
for bigger purchases or the acquisition of depots for our
special units. If from time to time we received any funds,
then those were only smaller amounts which were meagrely
distributed through the SA leadership. Generally, however,
and I believe I have mentioned that our SA men and, above
all, men in the special units, manufactured about ninety per
cent of their tools themselves or bought them with money
they had taken from their ordinary wages or had collected
from friends or acquaintances.

Q. Witness, there was some shooting in the SA, among other
things. Will you tell us what kind of weapons were used and
how many of these weapons were at the disposal of the
individual storm units?

A. The SA carried out shooting exercises on ranges with
small calibre weapons and partly also with air rifles. In
addition, at various leader meetings we had pistol shooting
competitions for sports training and just as a matter of
entertainment. Some SA men and units on private rifle ranges
belonging to rifle clubs carried out competitions from time
to time with larger calibre guns. The number of rifles they
had was very small. I remember -

THE PRESIDENT: We surely do not want the details of these
rifles. You have probably got it all in the hearings before
the Commission, the details of the particular calibre of the
rifles.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, this witness was only named for
two questions, the question of military training in the SA
and in connection with the newspaper Der SA Mann. I believe
that I have only a few more questions to put to this witness
altogether.

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q. You have spoken about schools before - group schools, and
so on. Were these schools continued during the war?

A. Shortly after the beginning of the war - no, I would
rather say immediately at the beginning of the war, the
largest number of these SA schools was closed Only a few
were being continued. The reason for that was that in the
course of time more and more SA men and leaders were
inducted into the armed forces, and on the other hand those
who remained behind or at home at their occupation were kept
so busy that they could no longer carry out their service in
the SA to the fullest extent, and especially at school.

Q. Now I should like to ask you about another subject, the
last one which I would like to discuss with you, and that is
the publication Der SA Mann. Can we consider Der SA Mann as
an official publication of the supreme leadership?

A. No, I did not consider it an official publication because
I knew that Der SA Mann was not published by the SA
leadership. It was a newspaper just like any other.

Q. What was the attitude of the supreme SA leadership to
that publication?

                                                  [Page 113]

A. The supreme SA leadership published official statements
such as promotions or announcements of a similar nature in
the newspaper. Apart from that, the contents were similar to
those of other publications.

Q. Did you, as chief of office Amtschef in the supreme SA
leadership, have any influence on the set-up of that
publication?

A. No, I had no influence on that newspaper. I only know
that my superior the Hauptamtschef had tried several times
to get a special section in that publication for schooling
and training. It was not possible, though. I do not know
why, but I have always assumed that for purely business
reasons this was refused.

Q. Now was that publication Der SA Mann used for training
purposes within the SA?

A. I have not noticed that. That publication was distributed
in schools and was read there just as other publications
were, but as far as I know it was not used for special
training purposes.

Q. There appeared in that publication a series of articles
about armament in other States. Is not it to be assumed that
these articles were published in order to justify our own
armament?

A. In my opinion, that particular weekly was not so
important or so well distributed that it could have had any
influence on important people or large numbers of people.

Q. Do you know of a publication within the SA which had an
official character?

A. The Verordnungsblatt, the official Verordnungsblatt, the
publication containing regulations of the supreme SA
leadership, or for instance, Der SA Fuehrer (the SA Leader)
which was published by a special department in the supreme
SA leadership.

Q. One question which is outside this complex of questions:
could you tell me who guarded the concentration camp in
Dachau from the very beginning?

A. As far as I can recall, that was guarded by SS. I myself
was never in that camp. Only later did I find out about the
existence of that camp.

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