Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-199.04
Last-Modified: 2000/11/14

DR. PELCKMANN: Quite right, your Lordship, but the
prosecution also raised the questions just now, and in such
a way that the witness had no chance to give an exact reply.

THE PRESIDENT: It is not necessary to argue the point. Do
you not think that you can make your re-examination shorter,
in view of the fact that the evidence was all given before
the Commission and the Tribunal has this before it?

DR. PELCKMANN: Yes, my Lord.

BY DR. PELCKMANN:

Q. What percentage of members, or rather of collaborators
and of those who were charged with the research projects for
the "Ahnenerbe," belonged to the SS?

A. About one half.

Q. Were the rest Party members?

A. That was not a condition.

Q. Then were there collaborators who were non-political?

A. There were even some who were rejected by the Party and
by the State for political reasons.

Q. Was Professor Seibt, a Norwegian, one of the members who
worked there?

A. Yes, Professor Seibt received a research commission from
the "Ahnenerbe," after I had effected his release from a
concentration camp.

Q. I have before me the original of your diary, parts of
which were quoted to you in your cross-examination. 330
pages of this diary deal with the period about which you
were questioned. The extracts, the parts which were
presented to you, number only three pages. In view of this
comparison, can you say that the matters which were
discussed constitute only a very small fraction of the work
carried on by the "Ahnenerbe"? Please be very brief.

A. Yes, I can confirm that, and I am waiting to make my
statement in this connection. I did not preserve my notes
for the purpose of concealing things which should be
truthfully clarified in the general interests of all.

Q. Witness, if fragments of this diary are presented to you
as they were presented to you in your cross-examination, are
you in a position to give exhaustive and correct
explanations without going into the context and into the
whole diary?

A. This is quite impossible because the size of the diary
shows the considerable scope of my main work, and the
comparative insignificance of the parts discussed here. And
considering the period of time over which these matters
extend, it is simply impossible to reconstruct them out of
their context and to make complete and truthful statements
on them. In my previous interrogations I again and again
pointed this out, and asked for my secret notes and data so
that I could give comprehensive accounts. For I myself, in
view of my political attitude,

                                                   [Page 15]

was eager to uncover the wrongs done, and to aid in
punishing them. But my requests were always in vain and my
written application of 20th December remained unanswered.
Relevant evidence has thus been passed over.

Q. That is sufficient, witness. I should like to mention
just one example of the completely wrong picture which can
result if the witness is limited to fragments of his diary.
This is the entry on Page 103, Friday, 14th April, 1300
hours. "Station Rascher: Stage of work, future work, orders
for provisional carrying on - Dr. Ploetner initiated." The
sentences which follow are not included in the extract. Now,
witness, would you read those sentences and comment on them?
Does this entry show, as the prosecution maintains, that Dr.
Ploetner continued Rascher's work?

A. The entry shows clearly that Dr. Ploetner did not
continue Dr. Rascher's experiments on human beings. On the
basis of these notes I could now develop a comprehensive
picture, but the time at my disposal is too short.

Q. Please make your comments.

A. In a dramatic way Dr. Ploetner described -

THE PRESIDENT: We do not want drama, we want the entry.

DR. PELCKMANN: Unfortunately, I cannot read it, my Lord,
because there is only one copy of the document.

THE PRESIDENT: Has not the witness got the document before
him? Why cannot he read it, then?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I will read it.

  "Hauptscharfuehrer Dr. Ploetner initiated .... Most
  important task: Polygal tests." That was the coagulating
  agent.

DR. PELCKMANN: Please give your comments when you have read
the entry.

THE WITNESS:  Order for carrying on of work - Putzengruber.
Policesergeant Nett reports that production of Polygal at
Schlachters is assured for three months. Feix reports on
production experience and first results at Schlachters. In
Schlachters the accounting system is to be set up by Gau
economic adviser. Purchase of machines."

DR. PELCKMANN: That means then that Dr. Ploetner was
initiated?

THE WITNESS: Initiated into all the administrative and
economic matters connected with the manufacture of Polygal.

DR. PELCKMANN: Now you were going to describe what happened
at that time.

THE WITNESS: Yes Dr. Rascher had begun the development of
Polygal, but the medicament did not come up to expectations.
Dr. Ploetner who -

THE PRESIDENT: The question that you put to him was: "Does
not this entry show that Dr. Ploetner did not continue the
investigations of Dr. Rasher?" How does the entry show it?
He did not tell us how the entry shows it.

DR PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, I did not, as far as I
remember, put the question in that way. I wanted to learn
something quite different from this witness. May I please
clarify this point after the witness has read these remarks
and his memory has been refreshed?

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, in my recollection and in the
recollection of the other members of the Tribunal the
question you put was: "Does not this entry in your diary
show that Dr. Ploetner did not carry out the work of Dr.
Rasher?" That was the question which you put. And we want an
answer to it and no other answer.

DR. PELCKMANN: Then I did not express myself correctly, your
Lordship.

                                                   [Page 16]

BY DR. PELCKMANN:

Q. I wanted to know. if now, after reading this entry, your
memory was refreshed as to the happenings at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. Then please describe them.

A. The activities of the institute -

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Dr. Pelckmann, in the first
place you realize, or you should realize, that the object of
re-examination is to make clear or to contradict anything
which has been put in cross-examination, and that is the
only purpose of re-examination. In the second place, the
Tribunal does not assume, from the fact that the witness has
been cross-examined to show that certain brutal and illegal
experiments were made by this institution, that the
institution did nothing else, and we do not propose to sit
here for a prolonged time to hear everything else that this
institution did. The only object of your redirect
examination should be to contradict the fact that illegal
experiments were made, or to clear up any doubts which may
arise upon those illegal experiments; not to show us that
they did other things.

BY DR. PELCKMANN:

Q. Witness, were further inhuman experiments carried out
after Rascher's  arrest, as far as you know?

A. No.

Q. No?

A. No. Dr. Ploetner, as I have already testified, expressly
refused to carry them out.

Q. Did you, after that time, hear of any other inhuman
experiments?

A. No, not in connection with the Institute of Scientific
Research for Military Purposes, of which I had inner
knowledge.

Q. You say that you had inner knowledge of the Institute of
Scientific Research for Military Purposes. What
personalities of the SS had insight into these  experiments?

A. Only those who had been charged with these matters by
Himmler personally, and there were very few

Q. How many approximately? Five or ten more or less do not
matter.

A. At a high estimate, ten to twenty.

Q. Were these directives classified "secret" or "top
secret"? Did they fall into the category "Secret Military
Matter" or "Secret Reich Matter"?

A. Yes, they fell into these two top secret categories.

Q. Can you therefore from your own knowledge say whether you
consider it possible that the mass of the SS men knew about
these things?

A. It is quite impossible that they knew or could have known
about these things.

Q. Do you recall that Freiherr yon Eberstein was quite
indignant when he learned of Rascher's experiments and
horrified that anything like that could; happen? Have you
any personal recollection of that?

A. Yes; I remember that because I had to report to him
personally in this matter. He was extremely angry during
this conversation and mentioned things which he had heard in
connection with the arrest of Rascher, and which shocked me,
too, very deeply. In his excitement he began to accuse me
and was then very astonished to hear that Himmler alone had
been in closest personal connection with Rascher and that
all instructions had come directly from Himmler.

Q. That is sufficient. Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: Now, can you conclude your ... the
observation you want to make in five minutes?

THE WITNESS: Yes, not longer.

                                                   [Page 17]

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, go on, then.

THE WITNESS: In the cross-examination I was accused of
having naturally had no personal misgivings whatsoever
regarding these experiments on human beings. I must
contradict this emphatically. My conflict of conscience was
very great and I was not appeased by the assurances which,
as I mentioned earlier, I had received from Himmler. I
therefore spoke with the leader of our secret organization,
and we came to the conclusion that further resistance would,
in the first place, have cost me my head, since an open
demonstration would have been the only choice left to us.
Secondly, moreover, the people affected by the experiments
would not in any way have been protected or helped thereby.
These experiments would have been carried through one way or
another in any event.

But wherever possible I did secretly what no other person
would have done, or dared to do. I prevented, through silent
sabotage, whatever could possibly be prevented. My repeated
offers to elaborate on this point with the help of my secret
data, and records, which go into several hundred pages, as
Dr. Pelckmann has shown, were in vain. Even now, time does
not permit me to give a more comprehensive picture of the
background of events and of the events themselves. I
personally rejected these experiments and did not support
them. I played a role similar to that of a syndic at a
university, who must be at the disposal of all professors
and heads of institutes, alike in all financial, economic
and administrative affairs. Therefore, I repudiate doubts
cast on my credibility and my personal attitude. The
documents submitted show exactly what I said about these
matters in my interrogations before the Commission, which
Dr. Pelckmann again mentioned just now. If, concerning my
alleged illegal activities, my credibility is put in doubt,
then the leader of the secret organization, Dr. Hilscher,
who is now in Nuremberg, is at the Tribunal's disposal in
this matter. Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.

(A recess was taken.)

MR. ELWYN JONES: Your Lordship, I have three brief documents
to put in on the SS case. The first is Document 4043-PS,
which I hand in on behalf of the Polish Delegation. It will
be Exhibit GB 592. It sets out the names of the 846 Polish
priests and monks of the Polish clergy murdered at Dachau
concentration camp.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that a State report or what??

MR. ELWYN JONES: It is an affidavit by a Polish priest,
attaching the names of the priests to his statements; the
names appeared in a Polish publication, a Polish newspaper.

I see that it is a statement on oath by the undersigned
Roman Catholic priest, which is as follows. I am wrong in
saying that it is a statement on oath; but it does attach a
list of the priests from a publication of the section "Press
and Culture" which was published in the Catholic weekly,
Polska Prodena. If the Tribunal is uneasy about the
document, I shall not press it. I am asked by the Polish
Delegation to submit it.

If your Lordship pleases, Document 007, which will be
Exhibit GB 592, in place of the last document, that is an
order from Himmler to the Higher SS and Police Chief,
Ukraine, Kiev, dated 7th September, 1943. It reads:

  "Dear Pruetzmann, General of the Infantry Stapf has
  special orders with regard to the Donetz area.  Get in
  touch with him immediately. I order you to co-operate as
  much as you can. The aim to be achieved is that when
  areas in the Ukraine are evacuated, not a human being,
  not a single head of cattle, not a hundredweight of
  cereals and not a railway line remain behind; that not a
  house remains standing; that not a mine is available
  which is not destroyed for years to come; that there is
  not a well which is not poisoned.

                                                   [Page 18]

  The enemy must really find completely burnt and destroyed
  land. Discuss these things with Stapf straight away and do
  your absolute best. Heil Hitler. Yours, Himmler."

There is a note attached to it: "SS Obergruppenfuehrer
Berger has received the copy with the request that the Reich
Minister for the East be informed." There are copies to the
Chief of the Regular Police, Chief of the Security Police
and SD, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Berger; Chief of the partisan-
combating units, copies sent with a request that they be
noted.

Finally, Document 022 refers to instructions of Himmler.

THE PRESIDENT: Who was the Reich Minister at the time?

MR. ELWYN JONES: As I understand it, my Lord, it was
Rosenberg.

Then, finally, there is Document 022, which will be Exhibit
GB 593. That is an instruction of Himmler dated 10th July,
1943, to the chiefs of units for combating partisans, the
Higher SS and Police Chiefs in the Ukraine, Higher SS and
Police Chiefs in Russia, Central Sector.

The first paragraph:

  "The Fuehrer has decided that the whole population has to
  be evacuated from partisan-ridden territories of the
  Northern Ukraine and of the Central Russian sector.
  
  2. The whole male population fit for work will be directed
  to the Reich Commissar for the Employment of Labour
  according to regulations which are yet to be laid down,
  but under the conditions of PWs.
  
  3. The female population will be directed to the Reich
  Commissar for the Employment of Labour for work in the
  Reich.
  
  4. Part of the female population and all children who have
  no parents will be sent to our reception camps.
  
  5. The evacuated territories are to be taken over and run
  by the Higher SS and Police Chiefs, as much as possible in
  accordance with an arrangement still to be made with the
  Reich Minister of Food and with the Minister for the
  Occupied Eastern Territories. They are to be planted
  partly with Kok-Sagys, and as far as possible agricultural
  use is to be made of them. The camps for children are to
  be established on the edge of these territories in order
  that the children may be available as labour for the
  cultivation of Kok-Sagys, and for agriculture. Final
  proposals are to be submitted to me as soon as possible.
  (Signed) H. Himmler."

There are the names of Berger and Backe below.

DR. PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, may I put a formal -

THE PRESIDENT: Just one minute ... Yes, Dr. Pelckmann.

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