Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-199.03
Last-Modified: 2000/11/14

Q. He was commissioned by Goering was he not?

A. I do not know who commissioned him on behalf of the
Luftwaffe.

Q. Well, just look at your own letter on this subject, No.
008, the first document in the English Document Book -
Exhibit GB 586. It is headed "Institute of Scientific
Research for Military Purposes'' dated 19th May, 1944. That
was after Rascher had been removed from the scene. It is to
"SS Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Waffen SS Pohl,
chief of the WVHA. Subject: Production of a new kind of
spotted fever serum."

  "Dear Obergruppenfuehrer:
  
  Following our application of 30th September, 1943, you
  gave your authorisation on 25th October, 1943, for the
  carrying out of experiments with a view to producing a
  new kind of spotted fever serum, and transferred 100
  suitable prisoners to Natzweiler for this purpose. It has
  been possible to carry out the experiments very
  satisfactorily so far with the help of the Chief of
  Department D III, SS Standartenfuehrer Dr. Dolling,
  commissioned by you."

Then there follow a number of sentences dealing with the
medical aspects and scientific aspects of it. Then a few
lines down:

  "I therefore request you to detail persons to Natzweiler
  again for the purpose of inoculation. In order to obtain
  results which are as accurate as possible and can also be
  utilised for statistical purposes, 200 persons should be
  placed at our disposal for inoculation this time; it is
  also again necessary that they be as far as possible in
  the same physical condition as is met with among members
  of the armed forces. If imperative reasons should demand
  that 200 persons should not be transferred to Natzweiler
  for the experiments, the experiments could be carried out
  in a different concentration camp, although it would
  entail great difficulties. The overcoming of these
  difficulties would, if necessary, have to be accepted by
  the scientists employed - although the latter are at the
  same time very much tied to the University of Strassburg
  owing to their lecturing activities - as the results
  which will certainly be achieved are of the most far-
  reaching importance for maintaining health. As I have
  informed you, the direction for carrying out the
  experiments is in the hands of the Director of the
  Hygienic Institute of the Reich University of Strassburg,
  Prof. Dr. Haagen, Major in the Medical Corps and
  consulting hygienist to an air fleet, who was
  commissioned with this task by the Reichsmarschall the
  President of the Reich Research Council. In accordance
  with his instructions Dr. Haagen has to report about his
  work to the chief of the

                                                   [Page 10]

  Luftwaffe Medical Services; in doing this he has to
  mention with whose support the work is carried out; i.e.,
  first the Reich Research Council and secondly the SS. I
  request your decision which of the following is to be
  mentioned as the supporting authority of the SS;
  
     (a) the Reichsfuehrer SS or
     (b) WVHA or
     (c) the Institute of Scientific Research for Military
     Purposes of the Waffen SS."

Are you still saying that Goering did not commission Haagen?

A. Yes, I still maintain that. It says here,
"Reichsmarschall, President of the Reich Research Council."
That does not at all mean that Herr Goering had knowledge of
all these commissions of which tens of thousands were given
in his name and on his stationery. The various authorized
persons and offices concerned were competent in this
respect, and that is evident from this document which lists
the chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Services.

Q. The Tribunal has this document before it, so I am not
going to argue with you on it.

THE PRESIDENT: Who signed the letter?

BY MR. ELWYN JONES:

Q. The letter is signed by you, is it not?

A. Yes.

Q. And you mentioned Goering specifically by name, not
simply Reich Research Council. Now just look at Document 009
which refers to that letter of yours. It will be Exhibit GB
587. It is Page 3 of the document book. That deals with the
question as to who is to have the honour of having taken the
lead in these experiments. It is to the "Reichsfuehrer SS,
Personal Staff." Whose signature is at the bottom of that
letter?

A. The personal adviser of the Reichsfuehrer, Dr. Brandt.

Q. It is dated 6th June, 1944, subject: Production of a new
kind of serum against spotted fever.

  "Dear Comrade Sievers: Thanks very much for sending the
  copy of your letter of 19th May, 1944, to SS
  Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. I have informed the
  Reichsfuehrer SS, as the matter seemed to me to be
  sufficiently important. In answer to the question as to
  who is to be designated as the supporting authority of
  the SS, the Reichsfuehrer SS said that both the SS
  Economic Administrative Office (WVHA) and the Institute
  of Scientific Research for Military Purposes should be
  mentioned. In addition, there is no objection to saying
  straight out that the Reichsfuehrer SS has also
  personally supported the experiments."

Now what was your connection with the experiments in
sterilisation? Witness, I will just remind you that they
were of three kinds. There were the experiments with the
juice of a plant, Caladium Seguinum, experiments with X-ray
sterilisation, and Klauberg's experiments on sterilisation
without operation. I have no doubt you remember them?

A. No, I do not remember them. I do not know them.

Q. Do you know who was carrying them out?

A. No, I do not know.

Q. Look at Document 035, which will be Exhibit GB 588, Page
7 of your Lordship's English Document Book. Page 8 of the
German Document Book. That is a letter to the Reich
Plenipotentiary for the Consolidation of German Folkdom, SS
Himmler, Chief of Police, Berlin. That was another arm of
the SS that was interested in these medical experiments, was
it not? Did you hear my question?

A. Yes. The address is completely wrong. It should just
read: The Reich Commissioner for the Consolidation of German
Folkdom.

                                                   [Page 11]

Q. I asked you whether it was another branch of the SS that
was involved in these medical experiments?

A. No, it had nothing to do with it.

Q. I will just read the letter in that case. It has the
initials of Himmler on the top, has it not, H.H.? You are
extremely familiar with them.

A. Yes.

Q. The letter reads:

  "I beg you to give your attention to the following
  statements. I have asked Professor Hoehn to hand this
  letter to you and have thus selected the direct path to
  you in order to avoid the slower official channels and to
  eliminate the possibility of an indiscretion, bearing in
  mind the enormous importance, under certain
  circumstances, of the idea submitted. Prompted by the
  thought that the enemy must not only be conquered but
  exterminated, I feel obliged to submit the following to
  you as the Reich Plenipotentiary for the Consolidation of
  German Folkdom. Dr. Madaus is publishing the results of
  his research into sterilisation by medicaments (I enclose
  both works). In reading this article, I was struck by the
  enormous importance of this medicament in the present
  struggle of our people. Should one be able to produce as
  soon as possible as a result of this research a
  medicament which, after a comparatively brief period,
  would cause an unnoticed sterilisation in individuals, we
  would have at our disposal a new and very effective
  weapon. The thought alone that the 3 million Bolsheviks
  now in German captivity could be sterilised, so that they
  would be available for work but precluded from
  propagation, opens up the most far-reaching perspectives.
  Madaus discovered that the juice of the plant Caladium
  Seguinum, swallowed or injected, produces after a certain
  time, particularly in the males of animals but also in
  the females, a lasting sterility. The illustrations which
  accompany the scientific work are convincing. Provided
  that the idea expressed by me meets with your approval,
  the following path could be followed: (1) Dr. Madaus
  should not publish any more works of this kind (the enemy
  is listening too !). (2) Propagation of the plant (easily
  raised in greenhouses !). (3) Immediate experiments on
  humans (criminals!) in order to ascertain the dose and
  the duration of treatment. (4) The quickest possible
  discovery of the formula of the composition of the
  effective chemical body in order - (5) To produce the
  same synthetically if possible. I myself, as a German
  doctor and a retired lieutenant of the reserve in the
  medical corps of the German armed forces, undertake
  complete silence on the use to which the subject raised
  by me in this letter is to be put. Heil Hitler! Signed,
  Dr. Ad. Pokorny, specialist on skin and venereal
  diseases, University Doctor of Medicine."

Do you know that subsequent to that greenhouses were erected
and these plants were cultivated?

A. No, I do not know that. I only remember in this
connection that this publication of Dr. Madaus, but without
reference to this rather strange suggestion of Dr. Pokorny,
was sent for comment to Dr. von Wuenzelburg, who was an
authority on tropical plants, and who told us immediately
that such a plant could not be raised here and was not even
available.

Q. I appreciate the difficulties of growing these tropical
plants in Germany, but an attempt was made to grow them, was
it not?

A. I do not know whether an attempt was made.

Q. Grawitz, the Reich Surgeon of the SS, was in charge of
these sterilisation experiments, was he not?

A. I do not know that either. It may be.

Q. Now, apart from these experiments, scientific murder, the
"Ahnenerbe" was also used for political purposes, was it
not?

                                                   [Page 12]

Fifth column activity abroad, for instance? The penetration
of the scientific thought of other countries as a method of
political influence.

A. No.

Q. Just look at Document 1698-PS, will you? It is inserted
before Page 20 of the English Document Book. There is just
one page of it. 1698-PS will be Exhibit GB 589. It is an
annual report dated 17th November, 1944:

  "The Heritage of the Ancestors. Germanic Scientific
  Mission Outpost Flanders, SS Obersturmfuehrer (F) Dr.
  Augustin. Annual Report. The work is aimed at an
  intellectual deepening and broadening especially in the
  intellectual strata of Flanders and Walloony. In
  following the Germanic line which the SS alone
  represents; (1) The liberal-humanistic educational front
  must be invaded by winning over occupants of intellectual
  key positions. (2) To work against the great German Myths
  with the idea of the Great-Germanic Reich-community. (3)
  To promote the revival of the consciousness of German
  culture and German folkdom with the exceedingly effective
  though neutrally camouflaged means of political
  propaganda, science, in view of the arrogant French
  assumptions of culture and the Flemish inferiority
  complex."

Then in the next paragraph it says:

  "Those strata of intelligence must be influenced which
  have not been reached by the official Press and
  propaganda. In university, college, and scientific
  policies, in the promotion of students' interests and in
  the granting of scholarships, in the selection for
  college training and in the education and promotion of
  the talented, our work must take effect. To influence and
  control the holders of intellectual key positions (e.g.
  college professors, associations of lawyers, educators,
  students, artists), that is the nature of the task."

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Mr. Elwyn Jones, are you submitting
that this is a crime?

MR. ELWYN JONES: Yes, my Lord, I am submitting that it is an
essential part of the machinery of this last instrument.
First of all the perversion of science, secondly of using
that perversion to infiltrate other countries. But I will
not press the matter at all.

Q. Now, Witness, the "Ahnenerbe" was a component part of the
SS, was it not?

A. I gave extensive evidence on this matter before the
Commission. The Germanic Scientific Mission was subordinate
to the SS main office. Dr. Augustin was appointed as expert
for this work which in itself was only a continuation of the
activity of many previous decades. I cannot believe that
this amounts to fifth column activity or misuse of science
for political purposes.

Q. I was asking you generally as to the "Ahnenerbe"; that
is, was it a department of the SS? Look at Document 488-PS,
Page 19A of the English Document Book. That is Himmler's
order with regard to the "Ahnenerbe." I only want to draw
your attention to the first paragraph:

  "I, the undersigned Reichsfuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler,
  hereby certify that the Research and Teaching Society
  'Das Ahnenerbe' and the 'Stiftung' (Ancestral Research
  Institute) are parts of my personal staff and thus are
  departments of the SS."

The funds of the Institute for Scientific Research, they
came from the Waffen SS funds, did they not?

A. I testified on both of these points before the
Commission. Firstly, I said that the "Ahnenerbe" became an
office in the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS in 1942
and that its status as a registered association was not
affected thereby. Secondly, I said that the funds of the
"Ahnenerbe" came from the Ahnenerbe-Stiftung, from funds of
the German Forschungsgemeinschaft, from fees of members,

                                                   [Page 13]

from funds of the Reich and from contributions of industry.
Waffen SS and Wehrmacht funds were, as I stated before, put
at the disposal of the institute only for military
scientific experiments.

Q. The members of the "Ahnenerbe" that were carrying out
these experiments were all SS men, were they not? I want you
just to look at the nominal roll of the "Ahnenerbe."
Document D-962, which is the last document I am putting to
you. It will be Exhibit GB 591. You see the names of
Professor Dr. Walter Rust, SS Oberfuehrer Dr. Hans Brandt?
And you see, as you go down the whole of that list, that
with one exception they are all officers of the SS, are they
not?

A. Yes, but with the difference that it does not show for
what purpose it is drawn up, because it merely lists the SS
leaders in the "Ahnenerbe" with reference to their marital
status and their children. I have already said that
approximately one half belonged to the SS, the other half
not at all.

Q. There are over loo names there of professors and German
doctors connected with your work. They were all with one
exception members of the SS, Were they not?

A. But they are not all scientists; the list also includes
truck drivers. I have to go through the list before being
able to answer the question.

Q. I do not want to go through the whole list, but they are
all SS men, are they not, and they were all employed on the
work of the "Ahnenerbe"?

A. No, indeed they were not. The list includes also honorary
members who only had one research commission.

MR. ELWYN JONES: I have no more questions, my Lord.

THE WITNESS: May I now be allowed to complete my statement?

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better have the re-examination
first.

RE-EXAMINATION

BY DR. PELCKMANN (for the SS and SD):

Q. Witness, what was the purpose of the Ahnenerbe Institute?
Was its purpose medical research or any other research?
Please be brief in your answer.

A. Its purpose was to carry out research in the arts and
sciences, as set down in the statute of the "Ahnenerbe."

Q. Is it correct that the "Ahnenerbe" had about fifty
different research commissions?

A. The "Ahnenerbe" had fifty different research branches,
which were institutes. Beyond that it carried out more than
one hundred extensive research projects.

Q. Did the Institute for Scientific Research for Military
Purposes fall under the research projects and the various
institutes which you have just mentioned?

A. It was a separate group within the "Ahnenerbe." That may
also be seen from the fact that it was financed -

Q. Please do not answer that now. I am now asking you only
if it was one of the institutes which you mentioned. I shall
put other questions and you will have a further opportunity
of speaking.

A. No, it was not one of the institutes I just mentioned.

Q. But you heard that the Institute of Scientific Research
for Military Purposes carried out experiments; is that
correct?

A. Yes.

Q. How were the projects and the institutes of the
"Ahnenerbe" financed?

A. The Ahnenerbe-Stiftung administered all the funds which
it received, and made them available to the "Ahnenerbe."

Q. Where did the funds come from?

A. From the means of the German Research Society, from
membership dues, from funds of the Reich.

                                                   [Page 14]

Q. What do you mean by membership dues? What members?

A. The participating members. Every German could become a
member of the "Ahnenerbe."

Q. Had they to be SS members?

A. No, anybody could become a member.

Q. You said that the money came from membership dues. Where
else did the money come from?

A. From contributions of industry.

Q. And where did the funds for the so-called Institute of
Scientific Research for Military Purposes come from?

A. Solely from Wehrmacht funds which had to be separately
administered according to the regulations -

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, I have got before me the
commission evidence about all this. This is all stated in
the commission evidence, is it not? I have it before me.

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