Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-199.02
Last-Modified: 2000/11/14

Q. Why did you go to the Political Department about it?

A. Because I had been in Vorarlberg together with Rascher
and Pacholegg and I was accused of aiding Pacholegg to
escape. All the circumstances of the arrest at the time when
the Rascher affair was suddenly uncovered were at issue.

Q. You must have been extremely anxious when Pacholegg
escaped; he knew a lot of the facts about your work, did he
not? You must have been most anxious to secure his
recapture.

A. I was mainly anxious about myself, for it is not hard to
imagine what would have happened to me, since Pacholegg knew
much - if it had been proved that I had favoured his escape,
as was being asserted.

Q. If you look at the entry for 23rd May, you will see that
you had a conference with the Reichsarzt SS Grawitz,
Poppendieck and Ploetner. Then you had "Division as to the
work of Dr. Schilling." Then, in the afternoon, you had a
two-hour conference with Ploetner. That was about these
experiments to make sea-water drinkable, was it not?

A. No, this concerns Ploetner's desire to discontinue his
work with Schilling. Ploetner complained bitterly about the
type of work carried on by Schillin and said that he could
no longer work with him. Ploetner had been ordered there as
a Waffen SS doctor.

Q. You yourself must have been feeling pangs of conscience
at this time about the use of inmates, because your military
situation was rather delicate, was it not?

A. Not only at that late date, but much earlier too. In view
of the documents which are being submitted now and the
accusations which are raised against me personally in that
connection I am forced to make a personal confession, a
fundamental statement, and I should like to ask the Tribunal
for permission to do so now.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that you may say anything
you wish in that regard.

MR. ELWYN JONES: I would like to say, my Lord, that I have a
number of other matters to put to this witness. If he cares

THE PRESIDENT: You can put them to him first.

MR. ELWYN JONES: If he cares to reserve his statement to the
end, he can do so, but it might be more convenient to the
Tribunal if he makes his confession now.

THE PRESIDENT: Let him make it now, then.

                                                    [Page 6]

MR. ELWYN JONES: If your Lordship pleases. Then will you
make your confession to the Tribunal?

THE WITNESS: Before the Commission on 27th June I had to
make factual statements in direct answer to the questions
put to me, and I was repeatedly asked to be brief. I
therefore had to limit myself to a statement of the relevant
facts and to disregard my own person and my personal
attitude to these questions. I note that in consequence my
credibility has been doubted and it has been said that I
personally participated in these incriminating experiments
and did not wish to tell the truth. In view of this, I must,
in my own defence, say the following:

I entered the Party as well as the SS as a leading member of
a secret organization of the resistance movement and on its
orders. Indeed, this position in the "Ahnenerbe" afforded us
special opportunities of working illegally against the Nazi
system -

BY MR. ELWYN JONES:

Q. Witness, when you say "resistance movement," I did not
quite understand you. What is the "resistance movement" that
you were leading?

A. The secret organization led by Dr. Hilscher, who in
connection with events of 20th July was arrested and kept
imprisoned by the Gestapo for a long time. I repeatedly
protested against the experiments with the result that
finally Himmler issued an order, also included in these
documents, that resistance against these experiments would
be regarded as high treason, and would therefore be
punishable by death. Among other things, he told me that no
one would ask me to carry out the experiments personally,
and that he himself would have the full responsibility for
them. Besides - as I myself read later - he said that such
experiments on human beings had taken place repeatedly as
part of medical  research and were necessary, as was proved
by the famous experiments on human beings carried out in
1900 by Dieth and later by Golderger in America.
Nevertheless my conflict of conscience -

MR. ELWYN JONES: If your Lordship pleases, I do not know
whether the Tribunal wants to hear more of this material. It
seems to me to be more an avoidance than a confession and I
have numerous matters that I desire to put to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Elwyn Jones, the Tribunal thinks you
better go on with your cross-examination. If the witness
wants to add something at the end he may do so.

BY MR. ELWYN JONES:

Q. Now, just look back again at your diary. On 27th June you
had a conference with SS Stabsfuehrer Dr. Brandt and SS
Hauptsturmfuehrer Berg on the "creating of a scientific
research station in a concentration camp. Information about
conference with SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl." That was 27th
June, 1944, you know. On 25th July you had a conference with
SS Stabsfuehrer Maurer, Oranienburg, about "the use of
inmates for scientific purposes." That was when you were
leading the resistance movement. On 26th July "SS
Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Fischer by phone. Order in accordance
with conference with SS Stabsfuehrer Maurer, dated 25th
July, 1944, to visit, as fast as possible, all concentration
camps, in order to fix finally the persons."

In October - 21st October you were having another
conference. "Research procedure - SS Sturmbannfuehrer Prof.
Dr. Hirth. Reviewed release of Staff Surgeon Dr. Wimmer for
duty and removal of the chemist, SS Obersturmfuehrer
Martinek."

On 23rd October you were having a conference with
Poppendieck. On that day you record in your diary, "Taking
over of biological research by SS Stabsfuehrer Dr. Ploetner
in Dachau."

                                                    [Page 7]

Witness, do you remember your experiments on the quickness
of coagulation of blood?

A. No.

Q. Did you take part in any such experiments?

A. I never participated in these experiments, because I am
not a research man. But I remember this work very well. Dr.
Ploetner, as I said, refused to carry out experiments on
human beings. The means of quickening the coagulation of
blood -

Q. I am sorry to interrupt you, but I would like you to say
what you personally knew about these experiments. What was
the form of them, for instance?

A. Experiments for quickening the coagulation of blood were
conducted in the University Clinic of Innsbruck by Prof.
Breitner, and in the University Clinic of Vienna by
Professor Denk.

Q. What happened was that bullets were fired into prisoners,
into concentration camp detainees. That was the form of the
experiments, was it not?

A. This experiment was carried out by Rascher and not by Dr.
Ploetner, and it came to light only after Rascher's arrest.

Q. I am not concerned with who carried them out. You knew
the form they took, and that was that bullets were fired
into detainees of concentration camps and then efforts were
made to stop the flow of blood, that was the form of the
experiments, is that not true?

A. That only came to light after Rascher's arrest. Before
that he had asserted that these experiments, among others,
were carried out at the hospital in Schwabing.

Q. Just look at Document 065, Page 8 of the English Document
Book. That will become Exhibit GB 583, and it is an
affidavit of Oswald Pohl, the head of WVHA. I want you to
look at paragraph 4, Page 11 of the German Document Book,
paragraph 4, in which he gives some testimony about you. I
want to read only part of paragraph 4.

  "Sievers came to find out from me about the possibilities
  for the manufacture of medicine. I mentioned the Deutsche
  Heilmittel GmbH in Prague which belonged to the German
  plants, managed by Oberfuehrer Baier, of my staff. I
  recommended Sievers to go to him. The medicine was
  manufactured later in Schlachters (Black Forest). Sievers
  told me the following: The 'Ahnenerbe,' of which he was
  the manager, had developed in Dachau a medicine which
  quickly brought coagulation of blood. It was enormously
  important for our Army because it prevented continual
  bleeding. It was the result of experiments in Dachau
  during which a prisoner was fired upon. A prisoner in
  Dachau played an important part in the discovery of this
  medicine."

Now, those facts are true, are they not?

A. Yes, but the account is quite incomplete. When this
discussion took place Rascher had already long ago been
arrested, and it was known that he himself had carried out
this experiment. Since it was Dr. Ploetner who had perfected
this medicine, I told Pohl about the experiments in detail
and submitted him the expert opinion of Professor Breitner
and Professor Denck from Vienna. The picture presented in
this document is completely misleading.

Q. Witness, Rascher is dead. It is convenient to cast all
the blame on to him, is it not?

A. I am concerned with clarifying the facts and I can only
say what is true and what I know exactly.

Q. Did you have anything to do with the experiments into the
cause of contagious jaundice?

A. No, I do not know anything about them.

Q. I want you to look at Document 010 Page 4 of the English
Document Book, my Lord, Exhibit GB 584. That is a letter, as
you see, from Grawitz to

                                                    [Page 8]

Himmler. It is dated 1st June, 1943, and headed "'Top
Secret.' Subject:  Investigation into the cause of
contagious jaundice."

THE PRESIDENT: What is the signature?

BY MR. ELWYN JONES:

Q. That is the signature of Grawitz, is it not, the Reich
Doctor SS and Police?

A. Yes.

Q. "Reichsfuehrer: The Fuehrer's Commissioner-General, SS
Brigadefuehrer Professor Dr. Brandt ..." - pausing there for
a moment - he was the Reich Commissioner for Health and
Sanitation, was he not?
 A. Yes.

  Q. "The Fuehrer's Commissioner-General called on me with
  the request that I should assist him by placing prisoners
  at his disposal for research work into the cause of
  contagious jaundice, which he was furthering
  considerably.
  
  The work has been carried out up to now by a medical
  captain, Dr. Dohmen, within the framework of the Research
  Institute of the Army Medical Inspectorate, with the
  participation of the Robert Koch Institute. It has up to
  now led to the conclusion, in agreement with the results
  of other German research workers, that contagious
  jaundice is not carried by bacteria but by a virus. In
  order to increase our knowledge, which is based up to now
  only on vaccination experiments from men to animals, the
  reverse way is now necessary, namely, the vaccination of
  the cultivated virus into humans. One must reckon on
  cases of death.
  
  The therapeutic and, above all, the prophylactic results
  are naturally largely dependent on this last experimental
  step. Eight prisoners condemned to death would be
  required, if possible of fairly young age, within the y
  prisoners' hospital of Sachsenhausen concentration camp.
  I respectfully ask for a decision, Reichsfuehrer, as to:
  
     1. Whether I may start the experiments in the
     prescribed form;
     
     2. Whether the experiments may be carried out in the
     Sachsenhausen prisoners' hospital by medical captain
     Dr. Dohmen himself.
  
  Although Herr Dohmen does not belong to the SS (he is an
  SA leader and a Party member), I would recommend this as
  an exception in the interests of the continuity of the
  series of experiments and thus of the accuracy of the
  results.
  
  The practical importance of the question raised for our
  own troops, especially in Southern Russia, is shown by
  the fact that this illness has been very widespread in
  the past years, both amongst us in the Waffen SS and the
  police and in the Army, so that companies have been
  reduced by 60 per cent for periods of up to six weeks."

And then there follows some more comment about the illness,
and that is signed by Grawitz. Grawitz was the vice-
president of the German Red Cross, was he not?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to turn to Document 011 on Page 5 of the English
Document Book - Exhibit GB 585. That is the reply of Himmler
to the letter of Grawitz. It is dated 16th June, 1943.
"Subject: Research into the cause of infectious jaundice,"
and Himmler says:

  "I give permission for 8 criminals condemned to death in
  Auschwitz (8 Jews of the Polish resistance movement who
  have been condemned to death) to be used for the
  experiments.
  
  I agree to Dr. Dolmen carrying out these experiments at
  Sachsenhausen.
  
  Like you, I am of the opinion that a real combating of
  infectious jaundice would be of untold value."

And then it is signed by Himmler with a note at the bottom:

                                                    [Page 9]

  "SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Berlin. Copy sent with a
  request that note be taken."

Those experiments into the cause of contagious jaundice were
done for the Waffen SS and for the Army, were they not?

A. I am hearing of these things for the first time today. I
know nothing about them and I cannot see what connection I
can have with them.

Q. If you please, I want you to deal next with your
experiments in spotted fever vaccine. Perhaps you may be a
little more familiar with the nature of those experiments.
Have you any knowledge of those? Professor Haagen might give
you a clue.

A. Yes, Professor Haagen did carry out vaccinations against
spotted fever at Natzweiler, at the request of the camp
where this disease had broken out.

Q. Who delegated Haagen for this work?

A. He was not delegated at all. He was the hygienist at the
University of Strassburg.

Q. But I asked you who delegated him for this work and not
what his qualifications were for it.

A. As far as I recall, these experiments were carried
through by Haagen on order of the Medical Inspectorate of
the Wehrmacht and of the Luftwaffe.

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