Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-20/tgmwc-20-193.02
Last-Modified: 2000/11/05

Q. May I say something?

THE PRESIDENT: Just wait a minute. Just wait a minute.

Colonel Smirnov, the Tribunal would like you to read on from
the place you had got to in Paragraph V, so that the
document may be translated and translated now at once. You
had got just to the place where it speaks of files, and at
the end of "Files," Paragraph 2 -

COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. Do you want
me to start reading from point (b) or from point (c)?

THE PRESIDENT: Paragraph 3.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes."Establishing of duplicate local files
for each region - "

THE PRESIDENT: That is not what I meant. You had read
Paragraph V, Roman V, down to the end of (2), the last words
of which are " - deprived of passports," etc.The next
paragraph is (3), small (3), Arabic (3) - "It is imperative
to speed up - "

COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: We want the whole of the document from there.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.

  "It is imperative to speed up the obtaining of necessary
  economic and political materials, such as maps,
  dictionaries, stationery and office supplies.
  
  5. Allocated members and agents of SD have to undergo a
  training course in order to get acquainted with the
  language and with the general conditions of life in
  Czechoslovakia. However, it might be advisable to train
  only persons appointed for the subsections as heads of
  foreign branches and managers of enterprises in order not
  to allow the number of persons becoming acquainted with
  the preparations to be too great.
  
  6. Release from military conscription of the appointed
  persons.
  
  7. Elaboration of plans, (a) for carrying out the task
  mentioned in Paragraph III; (b) for notification in due
  time, of the persons mentioned in Paragraph III5, II, I d
  and II c before invasion in order to give them the
  possibility to hide themselves to avoid arrest and
  deportation and to enable them to fulfil their missions.

                                                  [Page 203]

  8. Providing necessary passes in due time for entering
  zones of operation in order to secure a free passage and
  first-class living and working accommodations."

Shall I read Paragraph VI, Section VI, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: VI. "Miscellaneous. It is suggested that
wherever possible only militarily trained people be
employed, as:

  1. In the initial stages guerrilla and partisan warfare
  will probably have to be reckoned with.
  
  2. For that reason the following weapons will be
  necessary: carbines, pistols, hand grenades, gas-masks,
  and if possible sub-machine guns.
  
  3. Relations in the zone of military operation demand
  appropriate conduct.
  
  VII -

THE PRESIDENT: You have read VII already. But you had better
go back now to III, Paragraph 5, which I think you have not
read and which has just been referred to.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. "Training of special
agents (beforehand) from (mentioned in Item II - Id) persons
of German extraction living in Czechoslovakia who are to
take over the duties of secretaries of the most important
enterprises for the purpose of preventing sabotage on the
part of Czech organizations and offices."

THE PRESIDENT: Now I think you had better go back to II,
Paragraph 2a, "training of suitable persons."

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Is the interpreting division
ready?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: The interpreting division had better have the
original documents in German and read the passages which I
will indicate to them. I think you can go on, Colonel
Smirnov, because this would be checked over in the
translating division. The transcripts will be checked over
against the original document ....

Now, you were reading II, Paragraph 2a, beginning with the
words, "Training of suitable persons," were you not?

COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, Mr. President. May I
continue?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: "Besides" - interpreting verbatim from the
Russian text - "besides staff members of the SD we should
also try to employ honorary workers, because German agencies
should not be deprived of proper personnel, and other
frontier regions should take similar measures to provide for
the necessary personnel.

b. Measures concerning Item II is are necessary for it may
be found inexpedient to take people from the frontier
regions for these new organizations, as an increase of work
in these regions is expected anyhow."

THE PRESIDENT: I do not think you need read that. The
Tribunal directs that the original documents as read into
the transcripts, the shorthand notes; shall be checked over
by the translating division against the original German
text.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, we shall do it today.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal directs that the original German
document shall be re-translated into the other languages,
namely, into English, into French, into Russian.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President.

                                                  [Page 204]

THE PRESIDENT: Now will you turn to the document which
follows the document you have been reading and which appears
to be some sort of letter from an Oberfuehrer of the SS. It
is addressed to Dr. Best.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. Shall I read the whole
document or just the first paragraph?

THE PRESIDENT: You had better read the first paragraph,
anyhow.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: 2253. To SS Oberfuehrer, Dr. Best, Berlin.
The contents follows: Introduction of the Einsatz of Gestapo
and of the SD, Reichsfuehrer SS on the territory of
Czechoslovakia. Text: "The suggestion to introduce the
Gestapo and SD of which 12 detachments were provided for
along the Czechoslovakian frontier will be subject to some
modification as a result of the new situation arising from
the fact that the Czechs may concede the Sudeten territory.
Since some of the detachments will not be employed in the
districts which will become German, we offer the following
changes."

Shall I continue the quotation, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT: You do not need to read the rest. But is that
document dated?

COLONEL SMIRNOV: No, Mr. President, there is no date on the
document.

THE PRESIDENT: What you stated then did not come through.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: There is no date here, but there is another
date on another document, which I would like the Tribunal's
permission to submit. The document which is addressed to Dr.
Best has no date, but the next document has a date, and it
is this document that I consider extremely important. I
would like the Tribunal's permission to submit it. It is a
very short document, signed by Schellenberg.

  "Berlin-1, 13th September, 1938, State Chancellery 1-113,
  to the Departmental Chief, III, SS Oberfuehrer Jost or his
  deputy.
  
  Contents: Organisational Chart of the Einsatzkommandos,
  Operational Command."

Omitting the next sentence.

  "According to the regulations of the above-mentioned
  letter, I enclose herewith a photostatic copy of the
  Einsatzkommandos Organisational Chart. The Chart has been
  prepared by Department C according to the enclosed form.
  
  (Signed) The Chief of the Central Department I, 1aB
  
  SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Schellenberg."

Mr. President, I should like you at this point to look at
the chart which is attached, and which at that time already
reproduced very correctly the organization of the
Einsatzkommandos. You have all the details of the
organization there showing eleven different units. Among
those who are the leading collaborators of the Central
Headquarters, in the second column, you can find that at
that time the proposed chief of the gas chambers was
included, the man to whom later all the reports about the
activity of the gas chambers and the special death wagons
were directed. They have been read here before.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not see that on the chart.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is in the second column.

THE PRESIDENT: Show me where. Where is it?

COLONEL SMIRNOV (indicates.)

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. But cannot you show me where it is?

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. There it is.
(Indicating.)

(A document was handed to the President.)

                                                  [Page 205]

THE PRESIDENT: But, Colonel Smirnov, there must be some
words on the document which indicate what you are saying.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: I think, Mr. President, that what happened
is to be explained by the inaccuracies of the translation;
that is, by misunderstandings here. You see, I just drew
your attention to the name Herr Rauff, the man who was
mentioned there, to whom the reports about gas chambers and
other methods of killing people were directed. And there he
is. That post had been prepared and foreseen in that chart.

THE PRESIDENT: What is his name?

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Rauff, Mr. President. As early as 1939 we
see his name and the post which he was to occupy. This is
why I want to draw your attention to that.

May I continue the interrogation?

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smimov, the Tribunal would like to
have photostatic copies of this document.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President; we have ten copies.

THE PRESIDENT: We anticipate that you are going to give the
document to the witness and examine him upon it.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. The witness has it
before him already.

THE WITNESS: Yes; I have a photostatic copy here.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I should like to ask the
witness the following question

BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:

Q. Witness, tell me this. Did not the confidential agents of
the SD make and keep a list of persons who were to be
annihilated, or exhausted by hard labour?

A. Is the question being asked with reference to this
document?

Q. In connection both with the document and with your
knowledge of the situation.

A. I do not know whether lists were compiled.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I am asking your permission
to submit

THE PRESIDENT: The witness has not answered.

Will you answer the question?

THE WITNESS: I said that I did not know whether such lists
were made.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I request your permission to
submit the second German document which does not concern the
leading man of the SD.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, we wanted you to ask the
witness some questions so as to explain the chart. We have
only just seen the chart. Have you no questions to ask on
the chart?

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President, I will ask these
questions.

BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:

Q. Do you have the chart before you, witness?

A. I have the photostatic copy of the manuscript chart.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:

Q. You will now have the original of the chart.

Do you recognize the names of the collaborators mentioned in
the chart?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was Jost?

                                                  [Page 206]

A. Jost was the chief of Office III of the Foreign
Information Service in the former SD Head Office, and he had
been the first chief in Division VI of the Foreign
Intelligence Service.

Q. Anyway, in 1938 he was a member of the SD?

A. Yes, he was a member of the SS Special Department, SD,
and was chief of the Central Department III of the SD Head
Office.

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, I thought you told us the SS
had got no connection with the SD. You are now telling us
that this man was head of the SS Department, SD, are you
not?

THE WITNESS: There must have been a false interpretation.
Mr. President, may I repeat my answer?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, repeat your answer.

THE WITNESS: Jost was the head of Central Department III,
Foreign Intelligence Service, in the former SD Head Office.
He was later the first Division Head of Office VI of the
Foreign Intelligence Service, the predecessor of
Gruppenfuehrer Schellenberg, who has already been heard by
this Tribunal.

BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:

Q. Are you acquainted with the name of Ehrlinger?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was he?

A. I know Ehrlinger only from a later period. He was the
last No. 1 Division Head of the Reichsicherheitshauptamt.

Q. He was also a member of the SD, was he not?

A. He also belonged to the SS Sonderformation SD.

Q. Do you know the name of Rauff? Do you recognize that?

THE PRESIDENT: The translation came through then to us that
he was a member of the SS-SD.

THE WITNESS: He belonged to the SS Special SD Formation,
about which we spoke in detail yesterday; that is to say,
the merger of SS members who were in the Security Service,
in the Gestapo and in the Criminal Police; that is to say,
not all members of these, but only those who belonged to the
SS, and also those who were honorary co-workers belonging to
the SS, and also some other officers who worked with the
Sicherheitspolizei - for instance, the border police and
customs investigations officials arid later a number of
Landrate, too.

COLONEL, SMIRNOV: May I continue, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT: Go on.

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