The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Q. You therefore admit that if the output of one worker is
smaller than that of another, his food rations must be
smaller? Is that what I am to understand?

A: No, it is not right to interpret it that way. I should
like to explain the system again. In Germany each worker
received his ration as fixed by the Reich Food Minister. In
addition to that there were special increases as a reward
for increased output. At the beginning these increases were
not granted to Russian workers, and it is these increases we
are dealing with here, not with starving people or cutting
down their standard food rations-additional rations for
increased output.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we had better adjourn now. (A recess
was taken.)

                                                  [Page 167]

THE MARSHAL: If it pleases the Tribunal, the report is made
that the defendant Raeder is absent.

THE PRESIDENT: M. Herzog, do you anticipate being able to
conclude your cross-examination before half past four?

M. HERZOG: Yes, Mr. President, I think that I might even
finish before that.



Q. Defendant Sauckel, I offered in evidence this morning
Document 810, which is an account of the conference which
you held on 15th and 16th July, 1944, at Wartburg with the
heads of the regional labour offices. Do you remember?

A. Yes, I remember.

Q. Do you remember whether during this conference the
question of the discipline to be imposed upon the workers
was raised?

A. It is possible that during this conference - or, rather,
conferences - this question was discussed. I cannot remember
exactly; I did not participate in all the sessions.

Q. Do you know the Ministerial Counsellor Dr. Sturm?

A. Ministerial Counsellor (Ministerialrat) Sturm is not
personally known to me.

Q. Do you remember the declarations made at the conference
of the 15th and 16th July, 1944, by Dr. Sturm?

A. I cannot remember any particular statements from Dr.

Q. I shall hand you once more the minutes of that meeting.
It is Document 810 which was presented this morning as
Exhibit RF-16. Will you please look at Page 25 of the German
text. It is also Page 25 of the French version. There you
see - I read the first line:

  "Sturm gave the following report on his sector
  'Discipline of Workers.' (Disciplinary Measures)."

I shall pass to the next page where I read:

  "We are working with the Gestapo - "

THE PRESIDENT: Where is this?

M. HERZOG: Document 810, Mr. President; it is a document
which is marked

THE PRESIDENT: I know it is 806, but I thought you told us
that they followed on.

M. HERZOG: 810, sir, 810.

THE PRESIDENT: I have got that.

M. HERZOG: Page 25.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.

M. HERZOG: With your permission, I will begin again.

  "Sturm gave the following report on his sector
  'Discipline of Workers.' "

And on the following page:

   "We are working with the Gestapo and the concentration
   camps, and we are certain we are going in the right


Q. Did you make any observations when that declaration was

A. I did not hear that statement myself. He gave a
specialized report on questions of labour legislation as it
says at the beginning. I am seeing the record for the first
time in my life. There were several parallel meetings at the
same time. I did not hear it myself, but it is a matter of
course that some sort of ruling regarding penalties had to
be made, as is done in all labour legislation.

                                                  [Page 168]

Perhaps I may read to you from the same document, the

  "Measures regulating the employment of labour and pay are
  only possible on the strength of a healthy working
  morale. The regulations of a disciplinary character for
  securing such morale require unified handling, the
  details of which will be dealt with in a subsequent
  meeting of experts on penal law."

That, of course, is not one of my offices.

Q. I asked you what you thought of Dr. Sturm's declaration.

A. May I read in connection with Dr. Sturm's declaration -
at the end of the first page -

Q. Will you please answer my question first? What do you
think of this declaration?

A. I did not know the statement, but I suppose it comes from
some authority. I do not know whether it is the Ministry of
Labour or some other authority, that I cannot say. I did not
hear these statements -

THE PRESIDENT: Watch the light. Do you not see the light in
front of you?

Q. Do you not remember that an agreement was reached between
you and the Chief of Police and of the SS to hand over to
the Gestapo those workers who were guilty of leaving their

A. Well, there had to be an authority in Germany which dealt
with workers who left their place of work without being
entitled to. It could not be done by any other authority
than the police, there was not anybody else. In connection
with this document, may I please be allowed to read some
more from Page 1:

  "Apart from that, the number of penalties imposed by the
  authorities on German workers, such as reprimands, fines,
  concentration camps, and legal penalties, was relatively
  surprisingly small. In cases dealt with by the Public
  Prosecutor the penalties inflicted amounted on an average
  to .01 to .02 for every thousand workers."

Q. What has that to do with the question which I asked you
about your relations with the Gestapo and the concentration

A. But there was not any other authority except the police
in Germany which could arrest or detain if it was necessary
and justified by court rulings.

Q. You admit, then, that it was with your agreement that the
Gestapo proceeded to arrest workmen who had broken what you
call their contract of work, and to send them to
concentration camps?

A. Not to concentration camps, no, but into the custody
which was prescribed. The penalties were decreed in
accordance with certain regulations. I made no other

M. HERZOG: I submit in evidence Document 2200-PS which
becomes Exhibit RF-1519. It is a service memorandum of the
Gestapo addressed to the police officials in the Cologne and
Aachen districts. It refers to the fight against those
foreign workers who had broken their work contract.

Mr. President, it is the fourth document from the end in my
Document Book. I read from it:

  "The considerable number of refractory foreign workers is
  dangerous to the security of the Reich. There is always
  danger of actual sabotage in such cases. The
  Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police has
  reached an agreement with the Plenipotentiary for Labour
  that all complaints about absenteeism should be dealt
  with by the Gestapo. The Kreis police authorities are
  expected to examine anything bearing on this matter. They
  are authorized by me to give warnings to absentees and to
  hold them in custody up to 3 days in all cases of minor
  importance. The instructions concerning the attitude to
  be taken toward the individual groups of foreign workers
  are to be noted.
  In more serious cases of absenteeism the papers referring
  to the cases will be sent to the Gestapo (Koeln, Aachen,
  Bonn) by the Kreis police
                                                  [Page 169]
  authorities. The Gestapo will look into the matter and
  order the necessary measures (detention, sending to
  workers' re-education camps, concentration camps) to be


Q. Do you still deny that it was with your agreement that
refractory workers were first handed over to the Gestapo,
and then handed over to concentration camps?

A. I did not deny it, but as stated in the first paragraph,
this only happened if public order was disturbed by
punishable offences, that is, in serious cases, or when
there were breaches of contracts. There was nobody except
the police to undertake the search for such people, and I
consider the procedure to be perfectly correct.

Q. You find that it is a correct manner of procedure to hand
over foreign workers to the Gestapo and concentration camps?
I take note of your answer.

A. Only in the case of serious offences. It says "in serious
cases" in the document. That was the demand imposed on me.

Q. At what period was that?

A. When the demands were made?

Q. At what period did you have knowledge of these atrocities
which were committed in concentration camps?

A. I can say with a good conscience that I gained knowledge
of the cruelties which were committed in the concentration
camps only here after the collapse of the Reich.

Q. Do you think that it was the same with all the Hitlerite

A. I cannot speak for the others. I myself did not know of
such measures, which I abominate, until I heard of them

Q. Do you think that the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, for
example, was aware of the atrocities which were committed in
the concentration camps?

A. I cannot say whether the Reichsfuehrer SS knew of them,
whether he himself instigated them. During the whole of my
career I hardly ever spoke with the Reichsfuehrer SS because
our personal relations were rather strained.

Q. During the interrogation by your Counsel yesterday you
declared that you once visited the concentration camp of
Buchenwald; is that so?

A. Yes, in 1937 or 1938. I cannot tell you that from memory

Q. You declared you made this visit in the company of an
Italian commission, is that so?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Do you know that there is in existence an album of
official photographs of the concentration camp in

A. I do not know about that.

M. HERZOG: I offer that albumin evidence to the Tribunal as
Exhibit RF-1520. It bears the number D-565. It is a document
of the British Delegation.


Q. Do you recognize yourself in these photographs?

A. Yes, I recognize myself in this picture.

Q. With whom are you there?

A. That is the Reichsfuehrer SS.

Q. Himmler?

A. Himmler, yes.

Q. Thank you. And you contend that you, Gauleiter and
Governor for Thuringia, visited this camp in the company of
the Reichsfuehrer SS and - I call your attention to this -
in the company of the commander of the camp without
knowledge of what was happening inside the camp?

A. I cannot tell you when this picture was taken and whether
it was taken in the camp itself. I was once outside the camp
together with the Reichsfuehrer SS;

                                                  [Page 170]

there was another large site. But I was never inside the
camp together with the Reichsfuehrer SS. I was only there
once with an Italian commission.

This picture does not show that there was an inspection.
Here you see some troops -

M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will decide about that.

I offer in evidence, under No. 1521, the certificate
establishing the origin of this album.


Q. In October of 1945, you were interrogated on the
expulsion of Jews from industry. You said this:

  "I never had anything to do with it myself. I had nothing
  to do with the question of the eviction of Jews from
  industry. I had no influence in this matter. It was a
  mystery to me."

Can you confirm this declaration?

A. That is perfectly correct. I did not say the eviction of
the Jews was a secret to me; I said that, to the best of my
recollection, I had nothing to do with it.

Q. Your Counsel gave you a document yesterday, L-61, which
you thought you had to contest.

A. Yes.

Q. The point that you raised against this document was that
this document was dated 1942 and that it dealt with
questions prior to your appointment.

Did I understand you correctly yesterday?

A. The enclosures to the document deal with questions that
had already been started before I was nominated.

Q. I offer in evidence Document L-156, which becomes Exhibit
RF-1522. It is a letter written under the authority of the
Trustee of the Four-Year Plan, the General Plenipotentiary
for the Employment of Labour, that is you. It is dated 26th
March, 1943. It is addressed to the Chiefs of the
Agricultural Labour Offices, and it deals with the question
of the eviction of the Jews. It begins thus:

  "After agreement with me and the Reich Minister for
  Armament and Munitions, the Reichsfuehrer SS, for reasons
  of state security, removed from their place of work at
  the end of February those Jews not living in camps who
  were working as free workers. They have been formed into
  self-contained working units or assembled for
  deportation. In order not to endanger the efficacy of
  this measure, I have avoided issuing any notification of
  this measure beforehand, and I have notified only those
  Agricultural Labour Offices in whose district free Jewish
  manpower was employed in large numbers.
  So as to have a general view of the effect of those
  measures upon the manpower position, I ask you to let me
  have, by 31st March, 1943, a return showing how many Jews
  were removed from their work, and a return of their
  replacement by other workers which has been found
  When giving the numbers of the establishments and of the
  Jews employed by them, one should take into account the
  situation which existed before the evacuation. The
  enclosed form should be used in reporting."

Do you still say that you had no part in the matter of the
eviction of Jews and their replacement by foreign workers?

A. Here again I must state emphatically that this letter was
never put before me. It has no signature and here again it
comes from a sub-department in the Reich Ministry of Labour
at Saarlandstrasse 96. Some official was dealing with it. I
myself have absolutely no recollection that I have ever bad
knowledge of the letter. I did not write it, it does not
come from my office, and it has been written on behalf of
someone else and the signature is not mine.

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