The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: imt//tgmwc/tgmwc-15/tgmwc-15-140.06

Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-15/tgmwc-15-140.06
Last-Modified: 2000/03/25

                                                   [Page 70]

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, can you indicate in what way you
submit this document has any relevance at all? We have read
the document. It does not appear to have any striking

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, we have submitted this document
because it is to prove, or at least go to show, that the
defendant von Schirach, together with this Dr. Colin Ross,
continuously worked to maintain peace, and later on to limit
the  war. Therefore, it is submitted only to show that the
defendant von Schirach worked for peace.

THE PRESIDENT: The document does not mention von Schirach or
in any way indicate that he had worked for peace.

DR. SAUTER: But it says in the document, "We have done
everything in our power to prevent this war, or ...."

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the word "We" must mean the
people who "leave this world by our own will," namely Dr.
Colin Ross and his wife. It does not refer to von Schirach.

DR. SAUTER: We do not know that. Why should it not also
refer to von Schirach?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, because there is such a thing as
grammar. The document begins, "We leave this world by our
own will."

DR. SAUTER: As to that, Mr. President, may I remind you that
this name, Dr. Colin Ross, has been mentioned very often
during this trial in connection with the peace efforts of
the defendant von Schirach and that Dr. Colin Ross, together
with his wife, was living in Schirach's apartment when they
committed suicide.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, very well, Dr. Sauter, if you wish to
draw our attention to it, you may do so.

DR. SAUTER: Thank you.

Mr. President, this letter was not really meant for the
public; the top copy of the letter was left behind by Dr.
Ross, and a number of carbon copies were sent to personal
friends. In this way we found this letter of Dr. Colin Ross.
I do not think there is anything else I have to say.

THE PRESIDENT: I have not said anything critical of the
letter. If you want to read some sentences of it, read them,
if you do not, we will take judicial notice of it. As I tell
you, we have already read this letter.


THE PRESIDENT: I am not stopping you reading a sentence of
it, if you want to read a sentence of it.

DR. SAUTER: It is of course not necessary, Mr. President, if
you have taken cognizance of it. I have nothing else to say,
and at this point I can end my case for the defendant von

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, have you offered in evidence all
the documents which are in these books?


THE PRESIDENT: Then they will be numbered with the numbers
which are in the books.


THE PRESIDENT: Very well, then we will take judicial notice
of them all.

MR. DODD: Well, Mr. President, there is one here which the
Tribunal expressly rules on - the affidavit of Uiberreither.
The defendant von Schirach was told he would have to present
Uiberreither if he were to use this affidavit. He has not
been presented here and now the affidavit is being offered.
We expressly asked that he be called here if this affidavit
was to be submitted to the Tribunal.

                                                   [Page 71]

DR. SAUTER: I am not making any reference to Uiberreither's
affidavit, and I will forgo calling the witness

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Sauter.

MR. DODD: Then the affidavit is not offered?

THE PRESIDENT: No, it is not being offered.

MR. DODD: That is page 135.

THE PRESIDENT: Then it will not be admitted, and we will
adjourn now.

(A recess was taken until 14.00 hours.)

MR. DODD: Mr. President, during the presentation of the case
involving the defendant Funk, there were a number of
documents that we did not submit in evidence at the time;
and I asked the Tribunal's permission to do so at a later
time. I am prepared to do so now if the Tribunal would

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think it would be quite convenient

MR. DODD: Very well, sir.

The first one is a matter of clarifying the record with
respect to it. It is Document 2828-PS. It has already been
offered in evidence as Exhibit USA 654. But the excerpt, or
the extract, which was read will be found on page 105 of the
document. We cited another page which was in error.
Reference to this document, Exhibit USA 654, will be found
in Part 13 on page 139.

We also offered our Document EC-440, which consisted of a
statement made by the defendant Funk, and we quoted a
sentence from page 4 of that document. I wish to offer that
as Exhibit USA 874.

Then Document 3952-PS was an interrogation of the defendant
Funk dated 19th October, 1945. We wish to offer that as
Exhibit USA 875.

I might remind the Tribunal that the excerpt quoted from
that interrogation had to do with the statement made by Funk
that the defendant Hess had notified him of the impending
attack on the Soviet Union. That excerpt has been translated
into the four languages, and therefore will be readily
available to the Tribunal.

Then there is also another interrogation dated the 22nd of
October, 1945. We read from pages 15 and 16 of that
interrogation, as it appears in Part 13 on pages 187, 188
for 7th May. The document is 3953-PS; we offer it as Exhibit
USA 876.

We next referred to Document 3894-PS, the interrogation of
one Hans Posse. We offered it as Exhibit USA 843 at the
time, as appears in Part 13 on pages 149 and 150 for 6th
May. At that time I stated to the Tribunal that we would
submit the whole interrogation in French, Russian, German
and English. We are now prepared to do that, and do so.

Then we have Document 3954-PS. This is an affidavit by one
Franz B. Wolf, one of the editors of the Frankfurter
Zeitung. Reference to it will be found in Part 13 on page
144 of the transcript, where we stated that we would have
more to say about the reason for the retention of the
editorial staff of the Frankfurter Zeitung. That Document,
3954-PS, is also now available to the Tribunal in French,
Russian, German and English; and we offer it as Exhibit USA

Then, Mr. President, a film was shown during this
cross-examination of the defendant Funk; and the Tribunal
inquired as to whether or not we would be prepared to submit
affidavits giving its source, and so on. We are now prepared
to do so; and we offer first an affidavit by Captain Sam
Harris who arranged to have the pictures taken, which
becomes Exhibit USA 876. The second affidavit is by the
photographer who actually took the picture. We offer that as
Exhibit USA 879

Finally, I should also like to clear up one other matter. On
25th March, during the cross-examination of the witness
Bohle, witness for the defendant Hess, Colonel Amen quoted
from the interrogation of von Strompel, as appears in Part

                                                   [Page 72]

on page 35. We have had the pertinent portions translated
into the operating languages of the Tribunal, and we ask
that this interrogation, which bears our document number
3800-PS, be admitted in evidence as Exhibit USA 880.

I believe, Mr. President, that clears up all of the
documents that we have not offered formally, up to this

THE PRESIDENT: Now, Counsel for the defendant Sauckel.

DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for the defendant Sauckel): With the
permission of the Tribunal, I will now call defendant
Sauckel to the witness stand.


ERNST FRIEDRICH CHRISTOPH SAUCKEL, defendant, took the stand
and testified as follows:


Will you state your full name?

A. Ernst Friedrich Christoph Sauckel.

Q. Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God the
Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth
and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath.) .

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down:



Q. Witness, please describe your career to the Tribunal.

A. I was the only child of the postman Friederich Sauckel
and was born at Nassfurt on the Main near Bamberg. I
attended the elementary school at Schweinfurt and the
secondary school.

Q. How long were you at the elementary school?

A. For five years. As my father held only a very humble
position, it was my mother, who was a seamstress, who made
it possible for me to go to that school. When she became
very ill with heart trouble, I saw that it would be
impossible for my parents to provide for my studies, and I
obtained their permission to go to sea to make a career for
myself there.

Q. Did you join the merchant marine, or where dill you go?

A. First of all I joined the Norwegian and Swedish merchant
marine so that I could be thoroughly trained in seamanship
from the beginning on the big sailing vessels and clippers.

Q. How old were you at the time?

A. At that time I was fifteen and a half.

Q. What were you earning?

A. As a cabin boy on a Norwegian sailing ship I earned five
kronen a week in addition to my keep.

Q. And then, in the course of your career at sea, where did
you go next?

A. In the course of my career as a sailor, and during my
training which I continued afterwards on German sailing
vessels, I sailed on every sea and went to every part of the

Q. Did you come into contact with foreign families?

A. Through the Young Men's Christian Association and
principally in Australia and North America, as well as in
South America, I came into contact with families of these

Q. Where were you when the First World War started?

A. It so happened that I was on a German sailing vessel on
the way to Australia when the ship was captured, and on the
high seas I was made prisoner by the French.

Q. How long did you remain a prisoner?

A. Five years, until November 1919.

                                                   [Page 73]

Q. And did you return home then?

A. Yes, I returned home then.

Q. And then what did you do?

A. I had, it is true, finished my training and the studies
in seamanship that were required of me, but I could not go
to sea again and take my examination, as the savings I had
made during those years at sea had become worthless during
the German inflation. There were also few German ships and
very many unemployed German seamen, so I decided to take up
work in a factory in my home town of Schweinfurt.

Q. Did you remain in your home town?

A. At first I remained in my home town. I learned to be a
turner and engineer in the Fischer ball-bearing factory in
order to save money, so that I later could attend a
technical school, an engineering college.

Q. Were you already interested in politics at that time?

A. Although as a sailor I despised politics - for I loved my
sailor's life and still love it today - conditions forced me
to take up a definite attitude towards political problems.
No one in Germany at that time could do otherwise. Many
years before I had left a beautiful country and a rich
nation and I returned to that country six years later to
find it fundamentally changed and in a state of upheaval,
and in great spiritual and material need.

Q. Did you join any party?

A. No, I worked in a factory which people in my home town
described as "ultra red." I worked in the tool shop, and
right and left of me Social Democrats, Communists,
Socialists and Anarchists were working-among others my
present father-in-law-and during all the rest periods
discussions went on, so that, whether one wanted to or not,
one was involved in the social problems of the time.

Q. You mention your father-in-law. Did you marry then?

A. In 1923 I married the daughter of a German workman whom I
met at that time. I am still happily married to her today
and we have ten children.

Q. When did you join the Party?

A. I joined the Party definitely in 1923 after having
already been in sympathy with it before.

Q. What made you do it?

A. One day I heard a speech of Hitler. In this speech he
said that the German factory worker and the German labourer
must make common cause with the German intellectual worker.
The controversies between the proletariat and the middle
class had to be smoothed out and bridged over by each
getting to know and understand the other. Through this a new
community of people would grow up, and only such a
community, superior to the middle class and the proletariat,
could overcome the dire needs of those days and the
splitting up of the German nation into parties and creeds.
This statement took such hold of me and struck me so
forcibly, that I dedicated my life to the idea of adjusting
what seemed to be almost irreconcilable contrasts. I did
that all the more, if I may say so, because I was aware of
the fact that there is an inclination to go to extremes in
German people, and in the German character generally. I had
to examine myself very thoroughly to find the right path
personally. As I have already said, I had hardly taken any
interest in political questions. My good parents, who are no
longer alive, brought me up in a strictly Christian but also
in a very patriotic way. However, when I went to sea, I
lived a sailor's life. I loaded saltpetre in Chile. I did
heavy lumber work in Canada, in Quebec. I trimmed coal south
of the equator, and I sailed around Cape Horn several times.
All of this was hard work; I ask ...

Q. Please, come back to the question of the Party.

A. This has to do with the question of the Party for we must
all give some reasons as to how we got there. I myself ...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius, I stated at the beginning of
the defendant's case that we had heard this account from the
defendant Goering and that we did

                                                   [Page 74]

not propose to hear it again from twenty defendants. It
seems to me that we are having it inflicted upon us by
nearly every one of the defendants.

DR. SERVATIUS: I believe, Mr. President, that we are
interested in getting some sort of an impression of the
defendant himself. Seen from various points of view, the
facts look different. I will now briefly ...

THE PRESIDENT: It is quite true, Dr. Servatius, but we have
had half an hour, almost, of it now.

DR. SERVATIUS: I shall limit it now.


Q. The Party was dissolved in 1923, and refounded in 1925.
Did you join it again?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you take an active part in the Party or were you just
a member?

A. From 1925 on I took an active part in it.

Q. And what position did you hold?

A. I was then Gau Manager in Thuringia.

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