The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Q. That is an irrelevant comparison. On page 98 of your
book, speaking of the Hitler Youth, you wrote:

  "They strive to be political soldiers. Their model is
  Adolf Hitler."

Did you write that?

A. I have not found the place; is it page 98?

THE PRESIDENT: The witness has admitted he wrote the whole
book, has he not?

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: In order not to lengthen the proceedings
we will pass to the next question.


Q. You have already spoken here of a specially created
organization of motorized Hitler Youth; you assert this
organization had sport as its aim, is that right?

A. In connection with the training of the Motorized Hitler
Youth I spoke also of ground and driving exercises, and I
admitted that the Motorized Hitler Youth had pre-military
significance. I did not dispute this point at all.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd cross-examined the witness at very
considerable length on these matters about the special units
of the Hitler Youth, and it really serves no purpose in
going over it all again.

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, several points which are
still unexplained will be clarified through the following

Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that at the end of
1938 the organization of Motorized Hitler Youth consisted of
92 detachments, that is of one hundred thousand young men?

A. I cannot tell you from memory whether there were 92
detachments, because the word "Abteilung" - that was the
translation - was not a designation for any unit of the
Hitler Youth. I gave the exact strength of the Motorized
Hitler Youth for 1938 in one of my statements here either to
my defence counsel or to Mr. Dodd. I gave exact figures of
its strength in 1938.

Q. I am speaking of 1938, and you give the number of one
hundred thousand Hitler Youth who formed the Motorized Youth
Organization. Do you have knowledge of this?

A. I cannot tell you from memory whether there were one
hundred thousand members of the Motorized Hitler Youth in
1938. There might have been sixty thousand or 120 thousand.
I cannot say; I do not know. I have not the documents to
prove it.

                                                   [Page 19]

Yes, but I am quoting this number from data given by the
magazine The Archive. I would like to remind you of the
tasks of these organizations as they were set out in this
magazine in November-December 1939. I quote:-

  "The preliminary training of the Motorized Hitler Youth
  must be carried out in special training groups, and later
  in special motorized schools of the National Socialist
  Motor Corps."

I quote this excerpt according to the Document Book of the
defence, Document 20, page 50, of the Russian text. I

  "The preliminary training of the Motorized Hitler Youth
  must be carried out in special training groups, and later
  in special motor schools of the National Socialist Motor
  Corps, but this applies only to youth who have reached
  the age of seventeen or more. The course of instruction
  includes motor mechanics, a driving licence test, field
  driving exercises, and also ideological schooling. Those
  who successfully participate in this course of
  instruction will be admitted into the National Socialist
  Motor Corps."

This does not quite agree with your statement that the aim
was sport, does it?

THE PRESIDENT: We heard a long commentary about these
special units, and we really do not want to hear it any
more. If you have any questions on new matters which have
not been dealt with by Mr. Dodd, we shall be glad to hear
them, but we do not want to hear about whether there are
sixty or seventy or a hundred thousand or a hundred and
twenty thousand Hitler Youth in the motorized units.

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I am only quoting what has not been
mentioned yet.

THE PRESIDENT: General, we do not want to hear it. We do not
want to hear it.

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I will pass on to the next question.


Q. You issued a directive for nation-wide training of the
members of the Hitler Youth, so-called "Hitler Youth on
Service." This directive foresaw the following kind of
education for the Hitler Youth: the theory of weapons, the
theory of firing, target shooting, rifle practice, military
drill, topography, and field exercises; also instruction in
the use of the field compass and the goniometer. Are you
acquainted with this directive? Do you consider that this
also did not constitute military training of German youth?

A. I spoke in great detail about the training of "Hitler
Youth on Service" in my testimony last Thursday, and I
particularly discussed gunnery training which takes up forty
pages of this book. I mentioned in that connection that this
gunnery training was carried out according to the rules of
international gunnery sport and that the British Board of
Education recommended this gunnery training and also the
entire book to all Boy Scouts. I do not dispute that I
published this book, Hitler Youth, and that it served as a
directive for this training. But I said that here the other

Q. You have denied that the Hitler Youth played an important
part in the fifth column in Poland. Similar methods were
carried out especially in Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav
Government has put at the disposal of the Soviet prosecution
documents which estimated the part of the "Hitler Jugend In
Dienst," under the leadership of the Hitler Jugend, in the
organization of the fifth column on Yugoslav territory. Have
you any knowledge of this? Do you know anything about this?

A. The Hitler Youth was never active in the fifth column
either in Yugoslavia or anywhere else.
Q. I will then quote excerpts from the official report of
the Yugoslav Government. This has already been submitted to
the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR 36. I quote from page 3 of the
Russian text of this document:

  "The Reich Government and the Hitler Party have secretly
  organized the German minority. From 1930 they had their
  own organization, the 'Union

                                                   [Page 20]

  of Culture.' Already in 1932 Dr. Jacob Abender held the
  view that the Union of Culture should be Fascist in its
  outlook. In 1935 he was put at the head of an active
  youth organization which shortly afterwards received the
  name of 'Erneuerer ' (Organization of Revival)."

Do you know anything about this?

A. I cannot comment on the information which you have just
mentioned. I heard that Bohle had some youth leaders there
as his representatives, but I do not know any details.
Regarding Yugoslavia, I can tell you from my previous
activity that my relations with the Yugoslav youth were very
amiable and friendly in the period before the war.

Q. I am not interested in that. I will try to help your
memory by quoting a few excerpts from a supplementary report
of the Yugoslav Government which is submitted to the
Tribunal as Yugoslav Exhibit 357. On page 5, third line, of
the Russian text of this document it says:

  "In 1931 there began among the Volksdeutsche in our
  country an orientation towards National Socialism, and
  the first groups of youth started going to Germany for
  special courses of instruction."

Farther down on page 8, we read that later on, but before
the war with the Soviet Union, the greater part of these
members became officers of the German Army. In addition, a
special SS division, "Prinz Eugen," was formed from among
members of the youth organizations.

Do you deny these facts?

A. I can admit some, others I must deny. May I explain this?
Since 1933 I tried to bring about a good relationship with
Yugoslav youth. Starting in 1936 or 1937 I extended
invitations to Yugoslav youth groups, as well as youth
groups of all European countries to visit and inspect German
youth institutions. Yugoslav youth groups actually came to
Germany in response to my invitation. But I know nothing
about the enlisting of Yugoslav youths in the German Army; I
do not believe that. I can only say that at the time of the
regency of Prince Regent Paul there was a very close
collaboration with the Yugoslav youth. During the war we
maintained good relations with both Serbian and Croatian
youth. German youth visited Serbia, Croatia, while Serbian
and Croatian youths came to German youth camps, German
leader training schools and so on, and inspected our
institutions. That, I think, is everything I can say about
this. But we had friendly relations not only with Yugoslavia
but also with many other countries.

Q. You did not understand me correctly. I was not speaking
of the Yugoslav or Croatian youth. I am speaking of the
youth of the German minority in Yugoslavia who are mentioned
in this report and who, with the help of the Hitler Youth,
created centres of fifth-column activity to engage in
subversive operations and to recruit for the SS units, and
the Wehrmacht. That is what I am speaking about. Are these
facts known to you?

A. I know that there were young people among the German
minority in Yugoslavia, just as in Rumania and Hungary. I
know that this German youth felt that it belonged to the
Hitler Youth, and I think it is perfectly natural that these
young people welcomed the German troops on their arrival. I
cannot give information on the extent to which collaboration
existed between the troops and the youth, but that it did
exist is also quite natural. Of course, it could not be
considered military collaboration, but rather the kind of
co-operation which will always exist between an occupying
force and the youth of the same nationality as the members
of that force. But that has nothing to do with espionage or
the like.

Q. But the major part of the SS Division Prinz Eugen, which
was formed on Yugoslav territory; was made up of Hitler
Youth members from the German national minority in
Yugoslavia; and this was the result of the preparatory work
of the Hitler Youth. Do you admit that?

A. I do not know how the divisions of the Waffen SS, of
which there were very many, were recruited. It is possible
that some members of the German minority were recruited then
and there, but I have no definite information on this.

                                                   [Page 21]

Q. I will quote a few excerpts from two German documents.
They have not yet been submitted to the Tribunal. The first
excerpt is from a book by Dr. Janko Sepp, who was the Youth
Leader in Yugoslavia, entitled Speeches and Articles. He

  "All our national work before 1st September, 1939,
  depended on the help of the Reich. When on 1st September,
  1939, war began and when it at first appeared impossible
  to receive further aid, there was a danger that all our
  work would be interrupted ...."

And later:

  "The fact that in this cause so decisive for a nation and
  its worth I put at the disposal of the Fuehrer almost the
  entire German national group in the former State of
  Yugoslavia and gave him so many volunteers as soldiers,
  is to me a matter of great pride ...."

I submit this to the Tribunal as evidence, Exhibit USSR 459.

The next excerpt is from an article, We in Batschka, written
in 1943 by Otto Kohler, who was leader of German youth in
that territory. I submit this document to the Tribunal as
Exhibit USSR 456. Dr. Kohler wrote in that article:

  "Ninety per cent of our youth are members of the Hitler
  organization, the youth organization for Germans abroad."

The statements ought to convince you that the subversive
activity and organization of the fifth column, the
"nazification" of the German minority and its enlistment in
military units were actually carried out on Yugoslav
territory through the Hitler Youth. Please answer "yes" or

A. No. But I should like to comment on these documents. This
Dr. Janko Sepp who is said to have been the leader of the
Volksdeutsche in Yugoslavia is not known to me either by
name or personally. I have visited Yugoslavia several  times
in the past, but neither in 1937, I believe, when I was
there for the first time, nor later in 1938 when I visited
Prince Regent Paul, did I concern myself with the
Volksdeutsche youth there or with their leaders. On those
visits I spoke only with the youth of Yugoslav nationality.
That is all I have to say about the first document which on
the whole does not refer to youth at all. The second
document, which is signed by one Otto Kohler, who calls
himself the D. J. Leader - probably German Youth Leader - in
Division 7, to that document I can only say that it was
taken from a book about German Youth in Hungary which
appeared in 1943. In the Batschka we had a very large
settlement of Germans, people who had been living there for
150 or 200 years, and this youth leader organized the German
youth there with the approval of the Hungarian Government
and the Hungarian Minister of Education and in collaboration
with other Hungarian authorities. It was an entirely legal
measure, and no controversy existed about it between the two
countries. These young people were not members of the German
Hitler Youth, but they belonged to Hungarian youth groups of
the German minority in Hungary.

Q. And, did the Reich leadership of Hitler Youth have no
connection at all with such organizations abroad?

A. Of course, we visited these youths. When, for instance, I
was a guest in Budapest, the Hungarians themselves asked me
whether I would like to visit the villages and the youth of
the German minority. Neither the Regent nor any other
government authority had any objections to this. There was
no reason why I should ask German youth leaders to engage in
espionage in Hungary, I could just as easily have asked
Hungarian youth leaders, with whom I was on very good terms.

Q. Who was the leader of the Hitler Youth Organizations
abroad? There was a special foreign section in the Reich
Leadership of the Hitler Youth. Its task was the direction
of the German Youth Organizations abroad, was it not?

A. That is not correct. The Auslandsamt (Department for
Germans Abroad) of the Reich Youth Leadership was, if I may
say so, the "foreign office" of the

                                                   [Page 22]

younger generation. It was the task of the Auslandsamt to
maintain contact with other national youth organizations, to
invite youth leaders from abroad, to organize tours of
foreign youth organizations through Germany and to arrange
visits of German youth to other countries, in co-operation
with the foreign offices of those countries: in a case like
this, the Auslandsamt of the Reich Youth Leadership would
approach the Foreign Office, and the Foreign Office would
approach the Ambassador or representative of the country
involved. The Organization of Youth Abroad to which you are
referring was an organization subordinate to the
Organization of Germans Abroad, the head of which was
Gauleiter Bohle, who has already been heard in this Court.
This Youth Abroad consisted of German nationals who formed
units of the Hitler Youth in the countries where they were
living. For instance, in Budapest, the children of the
German colony, starting with the children of the German
Ambassador -

THE PRESIDENT: Surely, defendant, it is not necessary to
make such a long speech about it.


Q. You are giving too many details. The next question:

In the Ministry of the Eastern Occupied Territories, a
special youth department was created in the first Hauptamt.
What do you know about the work of this department and what
was its relationship to the Reich Leadership of the Hitler
Youth? Please answer briefly.

A. From my knowledge, I can say that when the Reich Ministry
for the Eastern Occupied Territories was created,
Reichsleiter Rosenberg expressed a wish that the Reich Youth
Leader should put at his disposal an official for the Youth
Department in the new Ministry. This official was appointed,
he was taken into the Ministry, and directed its Youth
Department. He was, of course, responsible to the Eastern
Minister. I cannot say more about this point. Reports from
this Department did not reach me.

Q. You mean that the Reich Leadership of the Hitler Youth
appointed a representative to a post in the Ministry for
Eastern Occupied Territories, and that this gentleman did
not send in any report to the Reich Youth Leadership; is
that right?

A. General, I meant that the head of this department or
whatever he was, this official in the Eastern Ministry who
came from the Hitler Youth, did not report to me. He
naturally reported to his immediate superiors in the Reich
Youth Leadership. The Reich Youth Leadership was located in
Berlin, and I assume that the officials of its staff were in
constant touch with him.

Q. As I understand it, the measures that were carried out by
the Youth Office in the Reich Ministry of Eastern Occupied
Territories were carried out with the knowledge of the Reich
Youth Leadership; is that right?

A. The measures taken there were carried out according to
directions laid down by the Reich Minister, who was the
immediate superior of his officials. If actual youth
measures, the treatment of youth, and so on, were dealt
with, I am sure that this official or Youth Leader discussed
the matter with the Reich Youth Leadership and made a report
on it. The Minister is always responsible for the youth
official in his Ministry, and not the organization from
which the youth official happens to come.

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