The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Q. Witness, we understood you this morning to make a
statement in the nature of a confession with respect to the
persecution of the Jews; and while that part of it that you
gave was, perhaps, bravely enough said, I think there is
much that you neglected to say, perhaps through oversight.

Now, I wish you would tell the Tribunal whether or not it is
a fact that your responsibility for young people in Germany
under the National Socialists was

                                                  [Page 383]

fundamentally concerned with making really good National
Socialists out of them in the sense of making them fanatical
political followers.

A. I considered it my task as educator, to bring up the
young people to be good citizens of the National Socialist

Q. And ardent followers and believers in Hitler and his
political policies?

A. I believe I said this morning that I educated our youth
to follow Hitler. I do not deny that.

Q. All right. And while you said to us that you were not
responsible for the State school educational system, I am
sure you would not deny that for all the other activities
with which young people may be concerned, you did have chief

A. Out-of-school education was my responsibility.

Q. And, of course, in the schools, the only people who
taught these young people le were those who were politically
reliable in respect to Hitler's opinions and beliefs and the
teachings of National Socialism?

A. The teaching staffs of German schools were definitely not
homogeneous bodies. A large part of the teaching body
belonged to a generation which had not been educated on
National Socialist lines, and did not adhere to National
Socialism. The young teachers had been educated on National
Socialist principles.

Q. Well, in any event, surely you are not saying that young
people under the public educational system of Germany were
not at all times under the guidance of those who were
politically reliable, certainly after the first year or two
of the administration of Hitler and his followers, are you?

A. Would you please repeat the question? I did not quite

Q. What I am trying to say to you is that there is not any
doubt in your mind, or in ours, that the public school
system of Germany was supervised, for the most  part, at
least, by people who were politically sound in so far as
National Socialism         is concerned.

A. I should not care to say that. Educational administration
in Germany was supervised by Reich Minister Rust, who - and
this is a fact - for reasons of ill-health, took very little
interest in his official duties. Many thousands of older men
were employed in connection with educational administration.
They had received their appointments long before the days of
the National Socialist State, and had retained them

Q. I do not care whether they were old or young, or how long
they had been in office. They all took an oath to Hitler,
did they not?

A. That is correct, inasmuch as they were employees, they
all took their oath as employees.

Q. Rosenberg had a very considerable influence on young
people in Germany, did he not?

A. I do not believe that. I think you are estimating my
co-defendant Rosenberg's influence on youth quite wrongly -
that you are over-estimating it. Rosenberg certainly had
some influence on many people who were interested in
philosophical problems and were in a position to understand
his works. But I must dispute the extent of the influence
which you are ascribing to him.

Q. You publicly said on one occasion that the way of
Rosenberg was the way of the Hitler Youth, did you not?

A. That was, I believe, in 1934 -

Q. (Interposing) Never mind when it was. Did you say it or

A. I did say it.

Q. When was it?

A. That was in Berlin, at a youth function there. But later,
I myself led the youth along an entirely different path.

Q. Well, we will come to that a little later. But in any
event, on this occasion in Berlin, when you had a large
group of your youth leaders present, you were doing your
best, at least, to have them understand that the way of
Rosenberg was the way that they should follow?

                                                  [Page 384]

A. But those were the same youth leaders who later received
different instructions from me.

Q. Well, I dare say that maybe so. We will came later to
those different instructions, but on this occasion, and at
that time, in so far as you were concerned, you wanted them
to understand that they were to follow Rosenberg's way,
didn't you?

A. Yes, but this way only affected one quite definite point,
which was under discussion at that time, namely the question
of denominational youth organizations. Rosenberg and I
agreed on this point, whereas we differed on many others;
and it was to this point that the statement referred.

Q. Rosenberg's way certainly was not the way of young people
remaining faithful to their religious obligations or
teachings, was it?

A. I would not like to say that.

Q. What do you mean? You do not know?

A. I can say in so many words that I have never heard
Rosenberg make any statement to the effect that young people
should be disloyal to their religious convictions.

Q. Well, I do not know that he ever said it that way either,
but I think you do know perfectly well, as do many other
people who were outside Germany through all these years,
that Rosenberg was a violent opponent of organized religious
institutions. You do not deny that, do you?

A. I certainly do not deny that in principle, but I do not
think that it can be expressed in these terms. Rosenberg in
no way tried to influence youth to withdraw from religious

Q. Actually, later on - Are you not willing to own that
later on, even perhaps at that time, in a secret and
indirect sort of way you played Rosenberg's game by
arranging youth meetings at hours when Church ceremonies
were going on?

A. I deny absolutely that I worked against the Church in
such a way. In the years 1933-34, I was concerned mainly
with the denominational youth organizations. I explained
that here yesterday.

Q. I know. You gobbled them up, and they all had to join
your organization sooner or later. But I am not talking
about that now. What I am trying to say is - and I think you
must agree - that for a considerable period of time, you
made it really impossible for young people of certain
religious beliefs to attend their Church services, because
you arranged for your youth meetings, at which attendance
was compulsory, to take place when Church ceremonies were
being held.

A. No, that is not correct.

Q. You say that is not so? Did not the Catholic bishops
publicly object to this very sort of thing, and do you not
know it as well as I do?

A. I cannot recall that.

Q. You do not recall any Catholic bishops objecting to the
fact that you were arranging your youth meetings on Sunday
mornings when their clerics were holding services?

A. In the course of time, as I explained yesterday, many
clergymen either approached me personally, or complained in
public that they were hampered in their spiritual
ministration by the youth services, and the forms which they
took; and that is why I adjusted matters in the way shown by
the document which my counsel submitted to the Tribunal

Q. Well, I do not think that is altogether an answer, and,
perhaps, I can help your memory by reminding you that your
organization specifically provided that these young people
who were attending church on Sunday, could not go in
uniform; and that was a very purposeful thing, was it not,
because they could not get out of church and get to their
youth attendance places at all if they had to go home and
change their clothes.

A. But in many parishes, the Church authorities forbade
young people wearing uniform in church.

Q. Well, I am not going to argue about it with you. Your
answer is that you do not recall any frequent and strong
criticism and objection from Churchmen

                                                  [Page 385]

about this particular Sunday morning programme. Is that the
way you want to leave it?

A. I certainly do not mean that. There were periods of great
tension, periods of heated argument, just as there was a
stormy period in youth organization generally. Later, all
these things were satisfactorily settled and put in order.

Q. Now, I understood you also to say that, whatever else you
may have done with the young people of Germany during the
years over which you had control of them, you certainly did
not prepare them militarily in any sense, in any sense
ordinarily accepted as being military; is that so?

A. That is correct.

Q. Well, now, let's see. What was the name of your personal
Press expert, or consultant, if you prefer that term?

A. The Press expert who worked with me longest was a Herr

Q. And you have asked him - as a matter of fact, you have an
interrogatory from him, have you not, which will be
submitted. I assume you know about that, do you not?

A. I know that my counsel has applied for it, but I do not
know the answers which Kaufmann gave.

Q. Well, you know the questions you asked, do you not?

A. I do not remember them.

Q. Well, perhaps if I remind you of one or two you will
remember. You asked him if he ever put out any Press
releases without your authority. You asked him if he was not
your personal Press consultant. And you asked him if it was
not true that you personally gave him the directive for what
you wanted published in the Press, and particularly in the
youth Press. Do you remember those questions?

A. (No response.)

Q. But you do not know the answers; is that it?

A. (No response.)

Q. Well, do you know that he published in the SS official
publication in September of 1942, an article about the young
people and the youth of Germany?

A. I cannot remember that article.

Q. Well, I think that you had better have a look at it. It
is Document 3930-PS. That becomes Exhibit USA 853, Mr.

THE PRESIDENT: What number did you say, USA -

MR. DODD: 853, sir.


Q. Now, this document which I am showing you is a telegram,
of course, a teletype message, "Reich Governor in Vienna."
You will see at the top it was received by you on the 10th
of September, 1942, and it sets out a copy of the subject
for the body of this article for the editorial star of the
Schwarzes Korps. That is the SS magazine, as you recall.

Now, you will see when you read it that, at the very
beginning, it states that a high-ranking officer, who had
come back to Berlin from Sevastopol, said that the
youngsters who had been seen some four years ago in short
pants marching through German cities singing "Yes, the flag
is more than death," were the nineteen-year-olds who took
that city of Sevastopol.

The article goes on to say that the lads are fulfilling in
fighting what they promised in singing; and that the
National Socialist Movement had brought up a young
generation, filling them with faith and self-denial, and so
on. And then the rest of it goes on in substance to say that
there were people who objected to your programme at the time
that you were trying to make these youngsters strong.

The clear meaning of it is that you are now claiming credit
for having had something to do with making them the good
nineteen-year-old fighters who took

                                                  [Page 386]

Sevastopol, is not that so? You are claiming credit, I say,
in this article for having produced this kind of
nineteen-year-old boy.

A. I had no knowledge of this article up to now.

Q. Well, you have now. You can talk about it, certainly.

A. That is just what I want to do. Herr Kaufmann at that
time had just returned from the Eastern Front, and deeply
impressed by what he had experienced out there, he wrote
down what appears in this article, which I cannot possibly
read now in its entirety.

Q. Well, it is not very long. Really, I read what I think
are the most important parts of it in so far as you are

A. That the youth was trained in a military way, I believe
is not mentioned in one single sentence in that entire

Q. Oh, I know. I am simply asking if it is not a fact that
you were claiming credit in this article for having had
something considerable to do with the fact that these
nineteen-year-old boys were such good fighters in Russia.
That is all I am asking you.

A. I have already told you that I wanted to train the youth
to become good citizens, and that I wanted to train them to
be good patriots -

Q. All right.

A. And should also do their duty in the field later on.

Q. Well, your answer then is, yes, you were claiming credit
for the fact that they were such good fighters. Now, there
is no trick in this question. It is merely preliminary, and
I want to get on, but I think you might say "yes." And
incidentally, this song, "The flag is more than death," was
a song that you wrote, was it not?

A. The "Flag song," which I based on the refrain "The flag
is more than death." That is true.

Q. Now, you have also published a number of other songs for
young people in the days before the war started, in a song

A. A great many song books for young people were published.
I do not know all of them.

Q. No, I do not either, but I am asking you if it is not a
fact that you did publish song books for young people.

A. Both the Cultural Service of the Reich Youth Leadership
and the Press service published such books. Of course, I did
not look at each single song in them myself; but, on the
whole, I believe that only songs which were sung by young
people appeared in these books.

Q. All right. We have some extracts from one of your song
books, and there is only one that I wish to refer to. Do you
remember the one, "Forward, Forward," another one that you
wrote, by the way? Do you remember that song?

A. "Forward, Forward," is the Flag Song of the youth

Q. All right. Did you write it?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, now, certainly that also contains does it not,
highly inciting words and phrases for young people with
respect to their military duty?

A. The Flag Song of the youth organization? I cannot see

Q. Well, words like these: "We are the future soldiers.
Everything which opposes us will fall before our fists.
Fuehrer we belong to you," and soon. Do you remember that?

A. I did not say: "We are the future soldiers," as I hear
now in English, but "We are the soldiers of the future."

Q. All right.

A. The soldiers of the future, the bearers of a future.

Q. All right, but that is another one of your songs, is it

                                                  [Page 387]

A. That is a revolutionary song dating from the fighting
period; it does not refer to a war between - say - Germany
and other powers, but to the fight which we had to carry on
inside the country in order to achieve our revolution.

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