The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/03/14

Q. For instance, the accounts with the Municipal Pawnbroker's Office?

A. In the account with the Municipal Pawnbrokers' Office the
depositor was not named.

Q. What happened to these gold teeth?

A. They were melted down by the Prussian State Mint. The
gold was then refined and the fine gold was returned to the

Q. Witness, you said earlier that at the beginning of 1943
certain articles had arrived stamped "Auschwitz". I think
you said the beginning of 1943

A. Yes, but I cannot tell you the exact date now.

Q. You said: "We all knew that there was a concentration
camp there". Did you really know that as early as the
beginning of 1943, witness?

A. Naturally, I know now.

Q. Yes, now of course, we all know it. I am talking about
the time at which this happened.

A. I cannot say for certain. I made that statement on the
strength - Oh!

I beg your pardon, I've just remembered something - These
deliveries were probably not handled until as late as 1945
or 1944 in the late autumn. It is possible that something
about Auschwitz had already leaked out.

Q. Now, you said under (14) of your statement that one of
the first indications of the source of these articles
apparently being the concentration camps was the fact that a
parcel of paper was stamped "Lublin". This was early in
1943. Another indication was the fact that some items bore
the stamp "Auschwitz".

                                                   [Page 75]

We all knew - I have already emphasized before for a very
good reason - we all knew that these places were the sites
of concentration camps. That is your statement, and I now
repeat the question. Of course we all know it now, but did
you, Herr Toms know at the beginning of 1943, that there was
this huge concentration camp at Auschwitz?

A. No. To that direct question I must say no, I did not know
it, but -

THE PRESIDENT: He did not say anything about a huge
concentration camp at Auschwitz.

DR. SAUTER: No, that was a rhetorical exaggeration of mine.
I said that we knew from the trial that there was a huge
concentration camp there.

THE PRESIDENT: Did he know it? Did he know that there was a
huge concentration camp in 1943? He has not said so.

THE WITNESS: I can answer "No" to your question, but this is
the point: I assume that this slip marked "Auschwitz" came
from a delivery which was probably made in 1943, but was not
dealt with until much later, and I made that statement when
I was in Frankfurt, so that the name "Auschwitz" was
familiar to me. I admit that there may be an exaggeration in
so far as I did retrospectively say to myself that that was
a concentration camp, you see. But I know that at the time,
somehow our attention was drawn to the name Auschwitz, and I
think we even asked a question about the connection, but we
received no answer and we never asked again.


Q. Well then, witness, I have one last question. The
prosecution has shown us Document 3947-PS. I repeat, 3947-
PS. Apparently, this is the draft of a memorandum which some
department in the Reichsbank seems to have prepared for the
directorate of the Reichsbank. It is dated the 31st of
March, 1944, and it contains the sentence on Page 2 which I
shall read to you because it refers to defendant Funk and to
the defendant Goering. This is the sentence:

  "The Reichsmarschall of the Greater German Reich, the
  Trustee of the Four-Year Plan, hereby informs the German
  Reichsbank in a letter of 19th March, 1944, a copy of
  which is enclosed," - incidentally, the copy is not here,
  at least I have not got it - "that the considerable
  amounts of gold and silver objects, jewels and so forth,
  at the Main Trustee Office, East, should be delivered to
  the Reichsbank according to the order issued by Reich
  Minister Funk" - the defendant - "and Graf Schwerin
  Krosigk, Reich Finance Minister. The conversion of these
  objects should be accomplished in the same way as the
  Melmer deliveries."

That is the end of my quotation.

Defendant Funk tells me, however, that he knew nothing about
such instructions, and that such an agreement or such a
letter was entirely unknown to him and that he did not know
anything at all about the Melmer deliveries.

MR. DODD: I must object to the form of the question. I have
objected before, and it is a long story "really" of the
answer before the question is put to the witness. I think it
is an unfair way to examine.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, you know, do you not, that you
are not entitled to give evidence yourself? You are not
entitled to say what Funk told you, unless he has given the

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, this is not one of our witnesses.
This is a witness who has volunteered for the prosecution.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, it is not a question of whose
witness he is. You were stating what Funk told you, and you
were not referring to anything that Funk had said in
evidence, and you are not entitled to do that.

                                                   [Page 76]


Q. As you were Reichsbankrat I should be interested to know
whether you knew anything about these orders which are
mentioned in the letter of 31st March 1944, from an office
of the Reichsbank and whether the defendant Funk was
concerned with this?

A. I think I can remember that instructions actually did
exist to the effect that gold from the Main Trustee Office,
East, should be delivered to the Reichsbank. I am not
absolutely certain whether this sentence is from a note
written by the Deputy Director of the Main Treasury, Herr
Kropp, to the Directorate of the Reichsbank at the time. I
am fairly certain that originally such instructions were
actually given, but I want to point out that the Main
Treasury, through the Precious Metal Department was against
accepting these valuables because technically they were not
in a position permanently to assume responsibility for such
considerable deliveries of miscellaneous articles.

This instruction was cancelled later on through Herr Kropp's
intervention. The deliveries from the Main Trustee Office,
East, to the Reichsbank, especially to the Main Treasury,
were not undertaken. I believe, however, I am right in
saying that originally instructions of the type which you
have just described, did exist.

Q. Did you see the instructions yourself?

A. I think that in the files of the Precious Metals
Department, which are in the hands of the American
Government, there will be carbon copies of these

Q. Was that instruction signed by the defendant Funk?

A. That I can not say.

Q. Or by some other office?

A. I really cannot tell you at the moment, but I cannot
assume that it is the case, because, if the orders referred
to are from the Finance Minister and Goering, both of whom
were Funk's superiors, then some other department must have

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

MR. DODD: May I ask one or two questions on re-direct




Q. Herr Toms, there was not any exaggeration about the fact
that you did find a slip of paper with the word "Auschwitz"
written on it among one of these shipments, was there?

A. No. I found the note.

Q. Now, I suppose you found lots of things among these
shipments with names written on them. There must have been
something that made you remember "Auschwitz", is not that

A. Yes.

Q. Well, what was it?

A. I must assume - I mean that I know from my recollection
that there was, some connection with a concentration camp,
but I cannot say. I am of the opinion that it must have
happened later. It is really -

Q. Well, I do not care to press it. I just wanted to make
perfectly clear to the Tribunal that you told us that you
did remember "Auschwitz" and it had such a meaning for you
that you remembered it as late as after the surrender of
Germany. That is so, is it not?

A. Yes.

MR. DODD: I have no further questions.

                                                   [Page 77]


Q. You said there were about 77 deliveries, is that right?

A. Yes, there were over 70.

Q. How large were the deliveries? Were they in trucks?

A. They varied in size. Generally they arrived in ordinary
cars, but sometimes they arrived in lorries. It depended.
When there were banknotes, for instance, the bulk was
smaller and the weight was less. If it was silver or silver
articles, then the weight was greater and a small lorry
would bring it.

Q. There were several lorries, or trucks, in each delivery,

A. No, the deliveries were not so large as that. There was
at the most one truck.

Q. One other question: Do I understand you to say that these
articles were transferred to new containers?

A. Yes, they were put into ordinary bags by the Reichsbank.
The bags were labelled "Reichsbank".

Q. Bags, marked with the Reichsbank's name on them?

A. Yes, on which the word "Reichsbank " was written.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.

EMIL PUHL , a witness, resumed the stand and testified
further as follows.

THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Seidl, do you want to ask the
witness Puhl a few questions?

Witness, you remember that you are still on oath?

A. Yes, sir.

DR. SEIDL: (Counsel for the defendant Goering).



Q. Witness, in connection with Document 3947-PS, Exhibit USA
850, I have several questions to put to you.

You heard earlier when the witness Toms was examined that
this letter contains a paragraph which refers to the
Reichsmarschall Goering and which is connected with the Main
Trustee Office, East. Is it true that this Main Trustee
Office was an office which had been established by a Reich
Law and that its right to confiscate had also been
specifically outlined by Reich law?

A. I cannot answer the second part of your question without
looking it up since I am not a legally trained man. The Main
Trustee Office, East, was an officially established office;
whether by law or by a decree, that is something I cannot
tell you at the moment.

Q. To your knowledge, did the Main Trustee Office, East,
have any connection with the SS Economic Administration
Headquarters, that is to say, with the office of Toms and

A. I have never observed that.

Q. Is it obviously out of the question, at least when you
read the letter, that the Main Trustee Office, East, and its
deliveries could in any way be connected with the Melmer

A. That very probably is so, yes.

Q. You mean there was no connection?

A. That there was no connection.

Q. You mentioned this morning that among the business
transactions which the Reichsbank handled very unwillingly,
were those with the Customs Investigation and the Currency
Control Offices. The last part of this paragraph, which
refers to the defendant Goering, contains a sentence which
refers to the conversion of objects of a similar type which
were taken from the occupied western territories. Is it true
that, particularly in the occupied western

                                                   [Page 78]

territories, both the Currency Control Offices and the
Customs Investigation Offices obtained rich booty?

A. The total of the valuables which were brought in by both
these offices is unknown to me. I rather doubt that it was
extraordinarily big. But certainly they were fairly large
sums, mostly, of course, in foreign currency.

DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions to the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, do you want to ask him anything?



Q. After having heard Herr Toms' testimony, do you wish to
change any of your testimony that you gave this morning?

A. No.

Q. And your affidavit that you gave under oath, do you wish
to have it remain as it is?

A. Yes.

MR. DODD: That is all I have to ask.


Q. Do you know who Kropp, who signed under the word
Hauptkasse in the letter of 31st March, 1944 (3947-PS), is?

A. Herr Kropp was an official of our Treasury Department. He
had a comparatively responsible position.

Q. Of which department?

A. The Treasury Department.

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. The witness can retire.


DR. SIEMERS (Counsel for defendant Raeder): Grand Admiral
Raeder, will you come up to the witness stand?

ERICH RAEDER, a defendant, resumed the stand and testified
further as follows:



Q. May I remind you that I put the basic question whether
the construction of the Navy was to serve aggressive or
defensive purposes.

The witness wishes to answer that question by referring to
parts of the speech tie made in 1928. It is Exhibit Raeder
6, Document Book 1, Page 5, and the speech itself begins on
Page 17.

Please go ahead.

A. First of all, I want to say that Minister Severing, whom
I had asked for as one of my witnesses, brought this speech
along of his own free will, as he still remembers the year

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