The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/03/09

Q. You actually signed the order by which that order of the
Fuehrer was passed on to the Commands, did you not?

A. Yes.

                                                    [Page 5]

COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, the Document is C-179, and that
was put in as Exhibit USA 543.

And it is in that bundle that Sir David Maxwell Fyfe handed
to the Tribunal when cross-examining the defendant. I think
it is either the last or very near to the last document in
the bundle.


Q. Did you approve of that order?

A. I regretted that one had to resort to this order, but in
the first paragraph, the reasons for it are set forth so
clearly that I had to recognize its justification.

Q. You knew what handing over to the SD meant, did you not?
You knew that meant shooting?

A. No, that could have meant a lot of things.

Q. What did you think it meant?

A. It could have meant that the people were interrogated for
the counter-intelligence; it could have meant that they were
to be kept imprisoned under more severe conditions and,
finally, it could have meant that they might be shot.

Q. But you had not any doubt that it meant that they might
be shot, had you?

A. The possibility that they might be shot undoubtedly

Q. Yes, and did that occur to you when you signed the order
sending it on to commanders?

A. I would like to refer to paragraph one of this order,
where it -

Q. Do you mind answering the question? Did it occur to you
that they might be shot when you signed the order sending it
on to commanders?

A. Yes, the possibility was clear to me.

DR. SIEMERS (Counsel for defendant Raeder): Mr. President,
the witness was asked whether he approved of this order. I
do not think that Colonel Phillimore can cut off the
witness's answer by saying that he may not refer to
paragraph one of the order. I believe that paragraph one of
the order is of decisive importance for this witness. Mr.
President, the witness, Admiral Wagner -

THE PRESIDENT: You have an opportunity of re-examining the


THE PRESIDENT: Then, why do you interrupt?

DR. SIEMERS: Because Colonel Phillimore has interrupted the
answer of the witness, and I believe that even in cross-
examination the answer of the witness must at least be

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal does not agree with you.

COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, I understand him to have made
the same point that he had already made. I only interrupted
him when he sought to make it again.


Q. I put my question once again. When you signed the Order
sending this document on to lower commanders, did it occur
to you then that these men would probably be shot?

A. The possibility that these people who were turned over to
the SD might be shot was clear to me.

Q. Was it also -

A. I have not finished yet. But only those people who had
not been captured by the Wehrmacht were to be handed over to
the SD.

Q. Did it also occur to you that they would be shot without

A. Yes, that can be concluded from the order.

Q. And what do you mean by saying that it only referred to
those not captured by the Wehrmacht? Would you look at
paragraph 3.

                                                    [Page 6]

  "From now on all enemies on so-called commando missions
  in Europe or Africa, challenged by German troops, even if
  they are to all appearances soldiers in uniform or
  demolition troops, whether armed or unarmed, in battle or
  in flight, are to be slaughtered to the last man. It does
  not make any difference whether they landed from ships or
  aeroplanes or whether they were dropped by parachutes.
  Even if these individuals when found should apparently
  seem to give themselves up, no pardon is to be granted
  them on principle. In each individual case full
  information is to be sent to the OKW for publication in
  the report of the military forces."

Are you saying it did not refer to men captured by the
military forces?

A. Yes, I maintain that statement. There is nothing in the
entire paragraph which says these men who were captured by
the Wehrmacht were to be turned over to the SD. That was the

Q. Now read on in the last paragraph.

  "If individual members of such commandos, such as agents,
  saboteurs, etc., fall into the hands of the military
  forces by some other means, for example through the
  police in occupied territories, they are to be handed
  over immediately to the SD."

A. Yes. It is expressly stated here that only those people
are to be turned over to the SD who are not captured by the
Wehrmacht, but by the police; in that case the Wehrmacht
could not take them over.

Q. Indeed it is not. That capture by the police is given as
one possible instance. But you know, you know in practice,
do you not, that there were several instances where
commandos were captured by the Navy and handed over to the
SD under this order; do you not know that?

A. No.

Q. Well, let me remind you. Would you look at the Document

That's also in that bundle, my Lord, as Exhibit USA 546. It
is the second document. According to the last sentence of
the Fuehrer Order of 18th October,

  "Individual saboteurs can be spared for the time being in
  order to keep them for interrogation. The importance of
  this measure was proved in the cases of - "

Have you got it?

A. No, I am sorry, I have not found the place yet.

Q. The second document in the bundle, 512-PS.

A. I cannot find the place.

Q. You have it now?

A. No, I have not yet found the text which you are quoting,
Colonel. May I ask you to repeat the passage?

Q. You have it?

A. Yes, I have the place now.

Q. Read the first sentence which I have read, and then go on
to the second sentence.

  "The importance of this measure was proven in the cases
  of Glomfjord, two-man torpedo Drontheim, and Glider Plane
  Stavanger, where interrogations resulted in valuable
  knowledge of enemy intentions."

And then it goes on to another case, the case of Gerond.

Do you say that you do not remember the two-man torpedo
attack on the Tirpitz in Trondhjem Fjord?

A. No, no. I am not asserting that I do not remember it. I
do remember it.

Q. Yes. Did you not see in the Wehrmacht communique, after
that attack, what had happened to the man who was captured?

A. I cannot recall it at the moment.

Q. Let me remind you. One man was captured, Robert Paul
Evans, just as he was getting across the Swedish border, and
he was - that attack took place in October 1942 - he was
executed in January, 1943, on 19th January, 1943.

                                                    [Page 7]

My Lord, the reference to that might be convenient, it is
the Document UK-57 which was put in as Exhibit GB 64.

Do you say that you do not remember seeing any report of his
capture or of his interrogation or of his shooting?

A. No, I believe I remember that, but this man -

Q. Now what do you remember? just tell us what you remember.
Do you remember seeing his capture reported?

A. I do not exactly remember. I remember there was a report
that a considerable time after the attack on the Tirpitz a
man was captured, but to my knowledge, not by the Navy.

Q. Would you look at the Document D-864, a sworn statement.

COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, through some error I am afraid
I have not got it here. May I just put the facts, and if
necessary put the document if I can produce it in time?


Q. I suggest to you that Robert Paul Evans, after his
capture, was personally interrogated by the Commander-in-
Chief Navy of the Norwegian North Coast.

Do you say you know nothing of that?

A. Yes, I maintain that I do not remember it.

Q. You see, this was the first two-man torpedo attack by the
British Navy against the German Naval forces, was it not?
That is so, is it not?

A. Yes, that is possible.

Q. No, but you must know that, do you not? You were Chief of
Staff Operations at the time.

A. I believe it was the first time.

Q. Do you say that the results of that important
interrogation were not reported to you in the Naval War

A. They were certainly reported, but nevertheless I cannot
remember that the Commanding Admiral in Norway actually
conducted this interrogation.

Q. Did you see a report by that Admiral?

A. I do not know where it originated, but I am certain I saw
a report of that kind.

Q. Was it clear to you that that report was based on

A. Yes, I think so.

Q. And you say you did not know that this man Evans, some
two months after his capture, was taken out and shot under
the Fuehrer Order?

A. Yes, I maintain that. I do not remember that.

Q. I will put to you another instance. Do you remember the
Bordeaux incident in December, 1942?

COLONEL PHILLIMORE: That is 526-PS, my Lord. That is also in
the bundle. It was originally put in as Exhibit USA 502.


Q. I'm sorry; it is the Toft Fjord incident I am putting to
you, 526-PS.

Do you remember this incident in Toft Fjord in March, 1943?

A. I do remember that about this time an enemy cutter was
seized in a Norwegian fjord.

Q. Yes. And did you not see in the Wehrmacht Communique
"Fuehrer Order executed"?

A. If it said so in the Wehrmacht Communique then I must
have read it.

Q. Have you any doubt that you knew that the men captured in
that attack were shot, and that you knew it at the time?

A. Apparently they were shot while being captured.

Q. If you look at the Document:-

  "An enemy cutter was sighted. Cutter was blown up by the
  enemy. Crew, two dead men, ten prisoners."

Then look down:

                                                    [Page 8]

  "Fuehrer Order executed by SD."

That means those ten men were shot, does it not?

A. It must mean that.

Q. Yes. Now I just put to you the Document that I referred
to on the Trondhjem episode, D-864. This is an affidavit by
a man who was in charge of the SD at Bergen and later at
Trondhjem, and it is the second paragraph:-

  "I received the order by teletype letter or radiogram
  from the Commander of the Security Police and the SD,
  Oslo, to transfer Evans from Trondhjem Missions hotel to
  the BdS, Oslo.
  I cannot say who signed the radiogram or the teletype
  letter from Oslo. I am not sure to whom I transmitted the
  order, but I think it was to Hauptsturmfuehrer Hollack. I
  know that the Commanding Admiral of the Norwegian
  Northern Coast had interrogated Evans himself."

And then he goes on to deal with Evans's clothing.

I put it to you once again: Do you say that you did not know
from the Admiral Northern Coast himself that he had
interrogated this man?

A. Yes, I am asserting that.

Q. Well, I will bring to your notice one more incident which
you knew about, as is shown by your own war diary. Would you
look at the Document D-658.

COLONEL PHILLIMORE: My Lord, this Document was put in as
Exhibit GB 229.


Q. Now, that is an extract from the SKL War Diary, is it

A. Let me examine it first. It does not give me the
impression that -

Q. You said yesterday that it was from the War Diary of the
Naval Commander, West France, but I think that was a
mistake, was it not?

A. I did not make any statement yesterday on the origin of
the War Diary.

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