Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-12/tgmwc-12-109.04
Last-Modified: 2000/01/20

THE PRESIDENT: Are you still reading from 1058-PS?

THE WITNESS: Yes. I quote the following paragraph:

  "We must declare in this connection, that even now we are
  not enemies of the Russian people. All of us who knew the
  Russians before, know that the individual Russian is a
  very likeable person capable of assimilating culture, but
  that he does not have the same force of character as the
  Western European ... Our fight for reorganisation is
  conducted entirely in line with the right of national
  self-determination of peoples ..."

I will not read on to the end. I will go into more detail
later. I made that speech fully convinced that after my
first explanatory remarks to the Fuehrer about the subject,
he had essentially agreed with me. I did not know, and he
did not tell me, that other military and police orders had
been issued already, otherwise it would have been
practically impossible for me - and particularly in
Heydrich's presence - to make a speech which, obviously
enunciated views contrary to the conceptions of Himmler and
Heydrich.

                                                   [Page 15]

As far as the passage from this document which has been
quoted by the prosecution is concerned, I have the following
to say: I heard from people working on the Four-Year Plan
that, in the event of an occupation of the Moscow industrial
region, and of far-reaching destruction through war, large-
scale industries could no longer be continued and that a
number of key industries only could continue functioning.
That, by necessity, would result in considerable
unemployment. Besides, it was not clear how considerable the
supply reserves were in the East, and in view of the general
food situation and of the blockade, the German food supply
would also require attention.

This is the basis for the remark that under certain
circumstances a large-scale evacuation of Russian
territories might be necessary where large numbers of
industrial workers might become unemployed. And in
connection with this I should like to refer to Document
1056, which contains the first directive from the Ministry
for Eastern Affairs, according to which the providing for
food supplies for the population also was made a particular
duty.

Q. On 17 July, 1941, you were appointed by decree of the
Fuehrer to act as Reich Minister for the administration of
the newly occupied Eastern Territories. On the preceding day
there had been a conference between Hitler, Keitel, Goring
and Lammers, during which you stated your administrative
programme in detail. I refer to Document L-221, USA 317, and
ask you to comment upon it. It is on Page 123 in Rosenberg
Document Book 11.

A. This document, which is obviously derived from a summary
record taken by Bormann, has, as a matter of course, been
submitted here four or five times. During that meeting I had
actually not intended to present a large-scale programme,
for this meeting had been called for the purpose of
discussing the wording of the projected Fuehrer decrees,
concerning the administration of the Occupied Eastern
Territories, and to give all the participants an opportunity
to state their views on that subject. I was also pondering
upon a number of questions dealing with personnel which I
wanted to submit to the Fuehrer. I was surprised, therefore,
when the Fuehrer began passionately and at considerable
length to expound, while making many unexpected observations
to me, his policy in the East. I had the impression that the
Fuehrer himself was strongly impressed by the powerful
armament, far beyond expectations, of the Soviet Union, and
the hard struggle against the Red Army. That apparently was
the cause for some of the statements made by the Fuehrer to
which I may perhaps refer to at the end.

In the presence of the other witnesses I countered the
unexpected statements of the Fuehrer, and in addition I will
read from Bormann's record the following paragraphs which
have not been mentioned until now. I quote from the original
document on page four:-

  "Reich Leader Rosenberg emphasises that in accordance
  with his views each Commissariat should carry out a
  different treatment of the population. In the Ukraine we
  would have to initiate a programme furthering art and
  culture. We would have to awaken the historical
  consciousness of the Ukrainians and establish a
  university at Kiev, and the like. The Reich Marshal makes
  the counter-statement that we have to think first of
  guaranteeing our food supply; everything else should be
  dealt with later.
  
  (Incidental question: Is there still anything like an
  educated class in the Ukraine, or are upper-class
  Ukrainians rather to be found only as emigrants outside
  present-day Russia?)
  
  Rosenberg continues that certain independence movements
  in the Ukraine deserved support."

Then follows on, Page five a quotation of the intentions of
the Fuehrer, where it says, and I quote:-

  "Likewise the Crimea, including a considerable hinterland
  (territory
  
                                                   [Page 16]
  
  north of the Crimea) should become Reich territory; the
  hinterland should be as large as possible.
  
  Rosenberg complains about this because of the Ukrainians
  living there.
  
  (Incidental remark - again from Bormann - "It has
  appeared to me several times that Rosenberg has quite a
  liking for the Ukrainians, thus he desires to enlarge the
  former Ukraine to a considerable extent.")

Thus there is evidence that I tried to persuade the Fuehrer
with all my might to agree to the same points which I made
in my speech on June, 1941, before the assembled department
heads.

The further content of the document shows that the Reich
Marshal was interested particularly in the appointment of
the former Gauleiter Koch and that I opposed this candidate
since I was afraid that Koch, due to his temperament, and
being so far removed from the Reich, might not follow my
directives. To be sure, while making that protest I could
not have known that Koch later on, in disobeying my
directives, would go as far as he did and, I shall add,
under the particular instigation of the head of the Party
Chancellery.

Towards the end on Page 10 of the original of the record
there appears a passage which has not been read, which I am
now quoting.

  "A lengthy discussion sets in regarding the extent of the
  competency of the Reichsfuehrer S.S. Obviously the
  participants have also in mind the extent of the
  jurisdiction of the Reich Marshal at the same time."

I personally wish to add that this is a private remark made
by the head of the Party Chancellery and does not by any
means represent the actual minutes of a meeting.

I quote further:

  "The Fuehrer, the Reich Marshal and others emphasise
  repeatedly that Himmler was to have no greater
  jurisdiction than he had in Germany proper; this,
  however, was absolutely necessary."

These minutes show that this was a rather heated discussion,
since, not only during that conference but before, I had
opposed the conception that the police should have legally
independent executive authority in the occupied territories,
i.e., that they were to be independent of the civil
administration. I also spoke against the present wording of
the Fuehrer decree which had already been prepared. I did
not find any support at all for my opinion from anyone
present, and that explains to a great extent the later
developments and the wording of the decree, signed on the
following day by the Fuehrer, and which dealt with the
entire administration in the Occupied Eastern Territories.

Q. On 17 July you were appointed Minister for the Eastern
Territories and at the same time other appointments were
made. The question now arises, what was the extent of your
competency and of your activities in the Eastern
Territories?

A. May I refer you to Rosenberg Document Book, Volume II,
Page 46, paragraph two which deals with the establishment of
the Eastern Ministry, and paragraph three, which reads as
follows:

  "Military sovereign rights and powers are exercised by
  the commanders of the Armed Forces in the newly occupied
  Eastern Territories in accordance with my decree of 25
  June, 1941. The powers of the Plenipotentiary for the
  Four-Year Plan in the newly occupied Eastern Territories,
  according to my decree of 29 June, 1941, and those of the
  Reichsfuehrer S.S. and Chief of the German Police,
  according to my decree of 17 July, 1941, are subject to
  special ruling, and are not affected by the following
  regulations."

Paragraph 6 states:

  "At the head of each Reich Commissariat will be a Reich
  Commissioner - " and then come detailed regulations
  stating that the Reich Commissioners and the General
  Commissioners will be appointed by the
  
                                                   [Page 17]
  
  Fuehrer personally and that consequently they could not
  be given leave or relieved of their posts by me.

Paragraph 7 rules that the Reich Commissioners will be
responsible to the Reich Ministers and will receive
instructions exclusively from them wherever Article 3 is not
applicable; that is the paragraph 3 which refers to the
Commanders of the Armed Forces and the Chief of the German
Police.

Paragraph 9 states:-

  "The Reich Commissioners are responsible for the entire
  administration of their territory with regard to civilian
  affairs."

In the next paragraph the entire operation of the German
railways and mails is placed under the jurisdiction of the
ministries concerned, as is not otherwise possible in war.

Paragraph 10 requires the Reich Minister, whose headquarters
are specified as Berlin, to co-ordinate in the highest
interest of the Reich, his wishes with those of the other
supreme authorities in the Reich and, in the event of
differences of opinion, to seek a decision by the Fuehrer.

I need not submit to the Tribunal the Fuehrer decree
concerning commands of the Armed Forces, since it is
sufficiently clear what we are concerned with; nor the
decree regarding the powers of the Plenipotentiary for the
Four-Year Plan, dated 29 June, 1941, in which it is stated
that the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan, that is
Reich Marshal Goering, may also issue instructions to all
civilian and military departments in the Occupied Eastern
Territories. However, of decisive importance in the
judgement of the entire legal relationship and the
consequences resulting therefrom later on, is the decree of
the Fuehrer regarding police security in the Occupied
Eastern Territories dated 17 July, 1941. It says under I as
follows:-

  "Police security in the newly occupied Eastern
  Territories is a matter for the Reich Fuehrer S.S. and
  Chief of the German Police." End of quotation from
  paragraph 1.

By this paragraph 1 all security measures in the Eastern
Territories were placed under the unlimited jurisdiction of
the Reich Fuehrer S.S., who thereby, alongside the Reich
Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories and alongside
the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan, became the third
independent central department of the Reich in Berlin, with
the result that the Minister for Eastern Territories could
not install a security or police department in his ministry
at Berlin.

Under 2 it states that the Reich Fuehrer S.S. is also
authorised, apart from the normal instructions to his
police, to issue instructions directly to the civilian Reich
Commissioners under certain circumstances and that he is
obliged to transmit orders of fundamental political
significance through the Minister for the Eastern
Territories, unless it is a question of the averting of an
immediate danger. This wording gave to the Reich Fuehrer
S.S. the practical possibility of deciding for himself what
he considered of political importance in his orders, and
what not; and what his orders, regarding the averting of
impending danger, concerned.

Paragraph 3 is of very great importance, since the quotation
of Document 1056-PS, on Page 2284 of the German transcript
has given the Tribunal the impression that the Minister for
Eastern Territories had units of the S.S. under his command
in the Occupied Eastern Territories. Even though it appears
from paragraph 1, which I have just quoted, that this is
incorrect, a wording which is often used in connection with
the powers of the S.S. has led to this misunderstanding.
This wording is quoted under 3 of the Police Security Decree
as follows:-

  "For the carrying out of police security each Reich
  Commissioner will be joined by a Senior S.S. and Police
  Leader who will be directly and personally subordinate to
  the Reich Commissioner. Leaders of the S.S.
  
                                                   [Page 18]
  
  and Police will be assigned to the chief and the area
  commissioners, and will be subordinated to them directly
  and personally."

Dr. Lammers, who had the task of drafting this decree, has
replied, upon questioning, that this wording was chosen to
mean that the civilian Reich Commissioner could certainly
give instructions to the police in political matters, but
that by the choice of the words "personally and directly
subordinate" the actual giving of orders was exclusively
reserved for the Chief of the German Police. And, as far as
I know, Himmler insisted particularly on this wording since
it was not officially binding and it gave to the outside
world and to the population at large in the Reich
commissariat the impression of a certain unified
administration, whereas, according to Reich law and in
practice, the power to issue orders "by-passed" the civilian
administration. The arrangements between Heydrich and the
General Quartermaster of the Army, of the existence of which
I heard for the first time during this trial, emphasise that
this corresponds to the facts, and points out just how these
matters developed and just how orders and authorisations of
the police were worded.

The other decrees deal with the establishment of the Reich
Commissariats themselves, and I don't believe that I need
quote them to the Tribunal. They represent the detailed
elaboration of that which has preceded.

I should merely like to refer now to the Lammers decree of 9
February, 1942, which refers to the mechanical industry and
armaments. I point out that, due to later wishes expressed
by other agencies in the Reich, the departments for
mechanical industry and propaganda, which had originally
existed there, were detached from the Eastern Ministry and
the Reich Commissariat headquarters and subordinated to the
corresponding ministries in such a way that Reich Minister
Speer had his principal agents in the Reich Commissariats as
liaison officers, just as the Reich Transport Minister also
had; and that political propaganda instructions were to be
issued by the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern
Territories, but their practical execution was to be left to
the Reich Minister for Propaganda.

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