Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-11/tgmwc-11-106.11
Last-Modified: 2000/01/13

Q. That is what you have said about all the other statements
I read to you today, is that not so?

A. Sir, I must -

Q. Is that so?

A. If you bring false accusations against me I must declare
them false. I cannot say "yes" to everything of which you
accuse me, just because the prosecution is wrong in
determining who was Himmler's representative.

Q. All right, go ahead and say whatever you want.

A. I ask you to bear in mind what I have said about the
jurisdiction and subordination of all higher police leaders
and S.S. leaders in the occupied territories. All of them
were directly subordinate to Himmler. The S.S. and police
leaders of a smaller territory were subordinate to the
Higher S.S. and Police Leader. The branches of the uniformed
police and of the Security Police were assigned to them and
they had the exclusive right to give them orders. The entire
organisation which operated in the occupied territories was
excluded from the command jurisdiction of the Central Office
of the Reich.

There are men here who can testify to the truth of what I
have said. Bach-Zelewski who was questioned here, was only
in the occupied territories and knows conditions there.
There is also the defendant Frank who worked with the
Supreme S.S. and Police Leader, who later became Secretary
of State.

Q. Your lawyer can call these people. All I am asking you is
whether or not this document is true or false, and then
requesting you to make any brief pertinent explanation you
might wish to.

A. This document is not correct.

Q. We know about potential witnesses all over Germany, and
we know all these defendants in the box have knowledge about
most of these affairs, but that is not what I am asking you
about.

I am merely asking you whether what was in that paper was
true or false and you have said it is false. Now, is there
anything else you feel you have to say about it?

A. It is not correct and this witness -

Q. Well, you have said that six times.

A.  - does not know the conditions.

Q. Well, how about General Stroop? Did he know anything
about it?

                                                  [Page 319]

A. If he was S.S. and Police Leader of Warsaw, and you have
shown me his diary and his film report, then, of course,
yes. Stroop was subordinate to the Supreme S.S. and Police
Leader. Stroop had to carry out the action on the order of
Himmler and with the help of the Supreme S.S. and Police
Leader.

Q. Stroop was a pretty good friend of yours, was he not?

A. I probably have not seen Stroop more than two or three
times in my life.

Q. Well, if Stroop were here he at least would be in a
position to tell the truth, would he not, about this Warsaw
Ghetto affair?

A. He would at least have to confirm my statement that he
was subordinate to the Supreme S.S. and Police Leader in the
Government General and that he was not subordinate to me. I
should be very glad if he could confirm that immediately.
From your words I must assume that he is in custody here.

Q. Well, he is not in custody here, but fortunately we have
an affidavit from him on exactly these matters about which I
have been questioning you.

COLONEL AMEN: I ask to have the defendant shown Document
3841-PS, which will become Exhibit USA 804.

BY COLONEL AMEN:

Q. We will find out whether Stroop confirmed what you are
trying to tell the Tribunal.

You will accept what Stroop says, will you, witness?

A. I have not read the document.

Q. No, but I say, knowing Stroop and knowing the position
which he held, you do not question that he would tell the
truth about the happenings in the Warsaw Ghetto: isn't that
what you have just said, in effect?

A. The truth of a witness's testimony has been questioned
before and rightly so. But as I do not know the document I
cannot define my position as to Stroop's statement.

Q. All right, we will read it.

  "My name is Juergen Stroop. I was S.S. and Polizeifuehrer
  District Warsaw from 17th or 18th April, 1943, until the
  end of August, 1943. The action against the Warsaw Ghetto
  was planned by my predecessor, S.S. Oberfuehrer Doctor
  von Sammem-Frankenegg. On the day when this action
  started I took over the command and von Sammern-
  Frankenegg explained to me what was to be done. He had
  the order from Himmler before him and in addition I
  received a teletype from Himmler which ordered me to
  clear the Warsaw Ghetto and raze it to the ground. To
  carry this out, I had two battalions of Waffen-S.S., one
  hundred army men, units of Uniformed Police and seventy-
  five to a hundred Security Police. The Security Police
  had been active in the Warsaw Ghetto for some time, and
  during this programme it was their function to accompany
  S.S. units in groups of six or eight, as guides and
  experts in Ghetto matters. Obersturmbannfuehrer Doctor
  Hahn was commander of the Security Police of Warsaw at
  that time. Hahn gave the Security Police its orders
  concerning their tasks in this action. These orders were
  not given to Hahn by me, but came from Kaltenbrunner in
  Berlin. As S.S. and Polizeifuehrer of Warsaw I gave no
  orders to the Security Police. All orders came to Hahn
  from Kaltenbrunner in Berlin. For example, in June or
  July of the same year, I was together with Hahn in
  Kaltenbrunner's office and Kaltenbrunner told me that
  while Hahn and I must work together, all basic orders to
  the Security Police must come from him in Berlin.
  
  After the people had been taken out of the Ghetto - they
  numbered between fifty and sixty thousand - they were
  brought to the railway station. The Security Police had
  absolute supervision of these people and was in charge of
  the transport of these people to Lublin.
  
  Immediately after the Ghetto action had been completed,
  about three hundred foreign Jews were collected at the
  Polski Hotel. Some of these people
  
                                                  [Page 320]
  
  were already there before the action, and some were
  brought there during the action. Kaltenbrunner ordered
  Hahn to transport these people away. Hahn himself told me
  that he had received this order from Kaltenbrunner.
  
  All executions were ordered by the Reich Main Security
  Office, Kaltenbrunner.
  
  I have read this statement over and I have understood it
  completely. I have made the statement freely and without
  compulsion. I swear before God that this is the full
  truth.
  
  Signed: Juergen Stroop."

Do you say that that statement of Stroop is true or false?

A. It is untrue and I request that Stroop be brought here.

Q. You will find that instead of its bearing out your story
it confirms in substantially every detail the story told by
Kaleske, who was Stroop's adjutant at the time. Isn't that
true, defendant?

A. It is not true, in so far as witness Stroop is one step
closer to my story, for on Page 1 he declares he had
received the orders regarding the Warsaw Ghetto from Himmler
and this is something which Kaleske has never said anywhere.

Q. I will accept that, defendant.

A. An interrogation of General Stroop will clarify this
point, also that Hahn had, of course, received orders from
the Gestapo in Berlin. Needless to say the officers of the
Security Police worked together with Amt IV, particularly as
far as interrogatories by commission (Rechtshilfsverfahren)
were concerned. But what matters in an action taking place
in the Government General and in Warsaw is the question of
what organisation was involved and all witnesses versed in
these matters will have to agree that this was the sphere of
activity of the Supreme S.S., and Police Leader in the
Government General, not of the Reich Main Security Office.
It is completely incorrect that these Security Police forces
in Warsaw, and officials such as Hahn, were not subordinate
to the S.S. and Police Leader.

It can be testified to and confirmed that all Security
Police offices, especially where an action of this kind was
involved, could have only one leader and one chief, and that
the local leader. But if, sir, you would give me the
opportunity of defining my position to these witnesses'
statements more comprehensively, I could bring the matter
forward properly.

Q. And now, defendant, I want to refer you to Document 3819-
PS, already in evidence as Exhibit GB 306, which consists of
notes of a conference in the Reich Chancellery on 11th July,
1944, signed by Lammers, and the subject of testimony before
this Tribunal the other day. You recall having attended that
meeting, I presume.

(Witness handed document.)

A. No, I do not know the purpose of that meeting.

Q. You do not deny that you were there, do you?

A. I do not know. This is the first time I have seen this
document.

Q. Now, look at Page 12, in the middle of the page, the
sentence there "In Paris, the evacuation of which was
considered - "

DR. KAUFFMANN (counsel for defendant Kaltenbrunner): Mr.
President, for the clarification of this question, I ask
whether it might have been more appropriate and correct if
the prosecution had questioned Lammers about this matter
when Lammers was here in the witness stand.

THE PRESIDENT: Was this put to Lammers?

COLONEL AMEN: Frankly, your Lordship, I do not know. The
document was introduced and identified, and I am not sure
whether he was asked about it or not. Sir David says that he
introduced the document with Keitel, at the foot of Page 9.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, go on.

BY COLONEL AMEN:

Q. Have you found the place, defendant?

A. Yes, I have found the place.

                                                  [Page 321]
  
  "In Paris, the evacuation of which was considered,
  100,000 to 200,000 workers could be seized. In this
  connection - "

A. No, sir, I have not found the place.

Q. Well, it's just above the paragraph which commences, "The
Chief of the Security Police, Dr. Kaltenbrunner." Can you
find that spot?

A. Yes, I have it now.

Well, passing to that sentence:

  "The Chief of the Security Police, Dr. Kaltenbrunner,
  declared himself willing, when asked by the General
  Plenipotentiary for the Employment of Labour, to place
  the Security Police at his disposal for this purpose, but
  pointed out its numerical weakness. For the whole of
  France he had only 2,400 men available. It was
  questionable whether entire age groups could be seized
  with these weak forces. In his opinion, the Foreign
  Office must exercise a stronger influence on the foreign
  governments."

Is that a true reflection of what took place at that
meeting, defendant?

A. I cannot agree with the wording of the document, but I
might say in explanation that according to the introduction
on Page 1, it was a "Chefbesprechung" (Discussion of
Chiefs), and that does not include me, for I was Chief of
the Reich Main Security Office. "Chefbesprechung" means the
chief ministries and the chief Reich departments.

By questioning the witness Lammers, it would have to be
determined whether I was there on the orders of the Ministry
of the Interior and Chief of the German Police, Himmler.
That would have been possible. That I was there on the
instruction of Himmler is evident from the numbers
mentioned. It mentions here that only 2,400 men were at our
disposal. Neither the Security Police nor the S.D., nor both
together ever had any number like that at their disposal. It
must have included all the forces, even the uniformed police
and other small organisations, which were subordinate to
Himmler.

Therefore, one thing, at least, is missing in this document,
that is the explanation that Kaltenbrunner, on orders of
Himmler, was giving the latter's views; that at least is
missing. But by questioning the witness, Dr. Lammers, I am
sure we can clarify this matter.

In any case, I would like to point out that it was my
opinion that I could not be helpful in this matter because,
first of all, negotiations between the Foreign Office and
the competent foreign, i.e. the French Government, were
necessary. Measures to be taken there could not be
introduced without the agreement of the French Government.

Q. All right, defendant. Now, do you recall evidence given
before this Tribunal about efforts made by Germany to incite
the Slovaks to revolt against Czechoslovakia, and about
Hitler using the insurgency of the Slovakians as one of the
excuses for occupying Czechoslovakia in March, 1939?

A. I do not know who testified to that.

Q. Well, in any event, during the years 1938-9, it is a
fact, is it not, that you were the State Secretary for
Security in Austria? Is that right?

(Note: State Secretary for Security was here wrongly
interpreted into German as Staatssekretaer fur die
Sicherheitspolizei-State Secretary for the Security Police.)

A. No, I was not State Secretary for the Security Police. I
was State Secretary for the security system of the Austrian
Government at Vienna, and there is an essential difference,
because the Security Police in Austria was instituted in and
directed from Berlin.

Q. Well, all right.

A. And in Austria I had not the slightest influence over the
Security Police, not even over my Minister.

Q. When did you become Supreme S.S. and Police Leader for
Upper Austria with your headquarters in Germany?

                                                  [Page 322]

A. That is a complete misstatement. In Upper Austria there
was no Supreme S.S. and Police Leader, only in Austria.

Q. Well, when was it?

A. That was after the liquidation of the Austrian Government
and after its affairs had been settled - and can be verified
from the Reichsgesetzblatt. It was probably in the summer of
1941.

Q. And isn't it a fact that you, yourself, directed the
activity of the Slovakian rebels and assisted them with
explosives and ammunitions? Answer that yes or no, please.

A. No.

Q., Do you recall having participated in any conference with
respect to a plan for instigating this revolt of Slovakia?

A. It is not correct; it is false. I did not participate in
instigating anything like that. I did take part in the first
government conferences in Slovakia and in the presence of
the delegate of the German Reich.

Q. Did your friend Spacil assist you in carrying out these
plans?

A. That I cannot recall today. In any case, they were not
German plans. If you investigate the political situation in
Slovakia at that time, you will see that it did not need any
instigation on the part of the German Reich. The Hlinka
movement under the leadership of Dr. Tuka, and also of Dr.
Tiso, I believe, had made this decision a long time before.

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