Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-10/tgmwc-10-90.11
Last-Modified: 1999/12/15

Q. At that time you made a speech at Madison Square Garden,
is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. That was a rally in the Garden?

A. It was for "German Day," on the 6th of October, 1936.

Q. A "German Day" rally, correct?

A. It was the annual meeting of the Germans which took place
on the 6th of October.

Q. And a great percentage of the participants in that rally
were members of the German-American Bund, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, that whole rally was held under the auspices of
the German-American Bund, was it not?

A. The fact is, a festival committee had been commissioned
by all German clubs - I believe there are all in all two
thousand of them in New York - and these 2,000 German clubs
had Agreed to one festival committee which organised the
"German Day." I did not know the composition of this
committee in detail.

Q. And it was at the solicitation of the German-American
Bund that you made your speech, was it not?

A. No, it was at the solicitation of the festival of the
German clubs of New York.

Q. Yes, and on that committee were numerous members of the
German-American Bund, is that true? Yes or no.

                                                   [Page 54]

A. Yes.

Q. And as a matter of fact, there were many of the members
of your organisation at that time who were active members of
the German-American Bund, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you personally had had several conferences with them,
both here in Germany and in New York City, correct?

A. No, that is not correct.

Q. Well, what is correct?

A. It is correct that I was invited, but there were no
further conferences.

Q. But you do not dispute that many of the members of your
organisation were at that time members of the German-
American Bund?

A. I am not informed on that point.

THE PRESIDENT (to the witness): I have just taken down that
you have said that was so.

COLONEL AMEN: Precisely.

THE WITNESS: Please repeat the question.

BY COLONEL AMEN:

Q. Did you not just tell me a few moments ago, in response
to a previous question, that many members of your
organisation were members of the German-American Bund at the
time of your speech at the rally in Madison Square Garden?

A. When you speak of an Organisation, do you mean members of
the German Ausland Institute?

Q. "Your organisation" is the way I put it.

A. I had no organisation; I had an institute.

Q. Exactly. And under whose auspices were you making this
speech in Madison Square Garden?

A. I was asked to make this speech because I had shortly
before been appointed Lord Mayor of the City of Foreign
Germans. I was Lord Mayor of that city, and therefore I was
asked to deliver the address. Stuttgart was made the City of
Foreign Germans since the Swabians furnished most of the
emigrants, and for that reason Stuttgart was to be the home
city of foreign Germans.

Q. Well, is it not a fact that many members of the Ausland
organisation were at that time also members of the German-
American Bund? Yes or no.

A. Yes.

Q. Is it not also a fact that at that time many members of
the Institute were also members of the German-American Bund?
Yes or no.

A. Yes, some of these Germans had come from America; they
were students who had studied in America and returned to
Germany.

Q. And is it not also a fact that many of these members of
the German-American Bund, who were likewise members of the
Ausland Organisation and the Institute, were indicted and
tried and convicted for various espionage offences in the
federal courts of the United States? Yes or no.

A. No, I know nothing about that.

Q. You never heard that?

A. No, I never heard about it. I know of the case of Kappe,
but that has no connection with the Deutsches
Auslandsinstitut.

Q. That is one case, as a matter of fact. Now, you know some
others too, do you not?

A. I wonder if you could give me particulars.

Q. I could, but I am asking you the questions rather than
trying to tell you the answers.

A. I cannot remember any other case. Please, question me.

Q. No, I will go to another subject now, because it is
getting late. Are you acquainted with M. Alfred Weninger - W-
e-n-i-n-g-e-r?

A. Weninger-yes, I am familiar with that name.

                                                   [Page 55]

Q. Who is he?

A. Alfred Weninger is, to my knowledge, at present in
France. I believe he is a jurist.

Q. Well, do you not know? Do you not know whether he is a
jurist or not?

A. Yes, he is a jurist.

Q. What is his nationality?

A. He is a Frenchman.

Q. Is he a friend of yours?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you intervene on his behalf on at least one occasion?

A. I provided for his release from prison.

Q. That was in March, 1943?

A. No, there must be some misunderstanding. I mean the
Alfred Weninger who is a Frenchman and whom I helped during
the war so that he was not sentenced to death, and was later
released from prison. However, that took place during the
period from 1942 to 1944. I do not know another Weninger.
There may be two Alfred Weningers . . .

Q. No, that is correct. He was sentenced along with twelve
other comrades for espionage and intelligence with the
enemy.

A. Yes, then it must be the same man and he is the one whom
I helped.

Q. And you intervened with the Attorney-General at the
People's Court?

A. Yes, I intervened with Freisler.

Q. And also, at the Ministries of the Interior and Justice
in Berlin?

A. I submitted to the Ministry of the Interior a memorandum.
regarding conditions in Alsace, at the time, in order to
have the Alsatians pardoned.

Q. And as a result of your efforts, these people received
temporary suspension of their sentences, is that correct?

A. Yes. I would like to mention expressly that I asked Herr
von Neurath to intervene and it is due to a letter which he
wrote to Hitler that these Alsatians were pardoned.

Q. So that this individual, to put it mildly, is under a
considerable obligation to you at the present time? Correct?

A. Yes, I imagine so.

Q. Well, you saved his life in effect, did you not?

A. I also saved the lives of many others. I do not know if
the people are grateful for it or not.

Q. Well, in any event, I take it you do not question the
truth of what he might report as a conversation with you;
correct?

A. I do not doubt that he would remember this.

Q. Do you recall having a conversation with him in June of
1940?

A. At the moment I cannot say unless you tell me what it was
about.

Q. Well, I will tell you what you are reported by him to
have said and I ask you whether you recall having said that
to him either in the exact words which I put to you, or in
substance. Do you understand?

A. Yes, I understand.

Q. Here are the words. "I warn you against National
Socialism, which does not recoil before anything and which
makes justice its servile agent. They are criminals and I
have but the one wish - to get out of it." Did you say that
to Weninger in words or in substance? Yes or no?

A. I did not quite understand what you said. Will you please
repeat it?

Q. You understand English, do you not, witness?

A. Some. I understand just a little.

Q. As a matter of fact, you were interrogated in English by
one of our interrogators, were you not?

A. I spoke a little English only on one occasion, but I
believe that he did not understand me.

                                                   [Page 56]

Q. And you understood perfectly well what I just read to
you, did you not?

A. I did not fully understand the German translation of what
you said and the substance of your question is not clear to
me.

Q. Well, I will read it to you again. But I suggest that you
are merely taking this time in order to find out what answer
you want to make. I ask you again whether you said to
Weninger in words or in substance, in June of 1940, the
following:

  "I warn you against National Socialism, which does not
  recoil before anything, and which makes justice its
  servile agent. They are criminals and I have but the one
  wish - to get out of it."

Do you understand?

A. Yes, I understand but I do not recall having made that
statement.

Q. Do you deny having made that statement When I tell you
that Weninger so states - Weninger, whom you have just told
us has every obligation to you?

A. I do remember it. It is perfectly true that I made
critical statements, but I do not recall the wording.

Q. Do you deny having made that statement? Answer yes or no.

A. I deny the statement. I deny that I made it in this form.

Q. Did you make it in substance, did you make that
statement?

A. I cannot remember the conversation at all.

Q. Do you recall having made another statement to Weninger
in 1936 in Strassbourg. . . . Were you in Strassbourg with
Weninger in 1936?

A. At the moment I cannot recall.

Q. But you do not deny it?

A. I cannot recall.

Q. It is quite possible?

A. It is possible, but I cannot recall it. I cannot at a
moment's notice recall the date I was in Strassbourg.

Q. And did you not say to Weninger in Strassbourg in 1936,
in words or in substance, the following: " When I am abroad
I am ashamed to be a German "? Yes or no.

A. It was entirely out of the question at that time, since
in the year of 1936 I was very proud of the fact that I was
a German.

Q. And then, do you deny having made that statement to
Weninger?

A. I am quite certain that I did not make that statement in
the year 1936.

Q. When did you make it?

A. I do not recall, having made such a statement to Weninger
at all, at least not in 1936.

Q. When did you make that statement to Weninger or anybody
else? In what year did you decide to make statements like
that?

A. I cannot recall having made such a statement at all.

Q. But you do not deny it?

A. I frankly admit that there was a time when one was no
longer proud of Germany.

THE PRESIDENT: Do the other prosecutors wish to cross-
examine?

DR. SEIDL: I have no questions to ask the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness can retire.

Does that conclude your case, Dr. Seidl, or have you got any
other evidence to offer?

DR. SEIDL: Yes. First, I have to read into the record the
questionnaire of the witness Alfred Hess which arrived in
the meantime. The Tribunal has admitted his testimony in the
form of a questionnaire. I would then like to refer to
various documents in document book No. 3, but before going
into that and to conclude today's proceedings, I would like
to establish upon the request of the defendant Hess - (this
refers to Volume 2 of the document book) - that Lord Simon
came

                                                   [Page 57]

to the meeting as the official representative of the British
Government; I therefore read a few sentences from page 93:

  Lord Simon said: " Herr Reichsminister, I was informed
  that you believe you have come here charged with a
  mission and that you wished to discuss it with someone
  who has governmental authority. You know that I am 'Dr.
  Guthrie' and therefore I come by order of the Government
  to hear your report and to discuss with you any
  information which you think should be given the
  Government."

That was what I wished to state in completion of my reading
of the Simon minutes.

THE PRESIDENT: Would you be able to finish tonight if we
went on for a few minutes or not?

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, the answers on this questionnaire
are rather long. The witness was cross-examined and I assume
that the prosecution also intends to read the particulars of
the cross-examination and I do not believe this would be
possible today.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, we will adjourn.

(The Tribunal adjourned until 1000 hours on 26th March, 1946.)

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