Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-10/tgmwc-10-90.03
Last-Modified: 1999/12/15

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defendants' counsel wish to ask
the witness any questions?

DR. SAUTER (counsel for defendant Schirach): I would like to
put several questions to this witness, your Honour.

DR. SAUTER:

Q. Witness, I represent the defendant von Schirach, the
former leader of the German Youth. Therefore, the following
points would interest me: Did the Hitler Youth (H.J.) also
exist in foreign countries, or only in Germany?

                                                   [Page 21]

A. The Hitler Youth existed in foreign countries also, among
the native Germans.

Q. Please tell me whether the Hitler Youth abroad was
subject to the  political directives of the duly qualified
Landesleiter of the Ausland Organization, or is that not
right?

A. Yes, the Hitler Youth abroad was politically under the
control of the Hoheitstrager (bearers of supreme power) of
the Party.

Q. Once in the course of the proceedings the assertion was
made that members of the Hitler Youth were trained for
service as agents and for espionage work abroad and also
were used for these purposes. Neither actual facts nor
individual cases were given, but only this general assertion
was made, and in this connection it was also asserted that
Hitler Youth abroad were even used as paratroopers, that is,
that they had been trained internally as paratroopers in
order to be used abroad in this capacity.

That is the assertion which I submit to you and I now ask to
have your opinion on this, whether according to your
knowledge as the duly qualified leader of the Ausland
Organization, something like that did occur or whether
anything like that was at all possible?

A. I would like to say the following in reply:

I consider it entirely out of the question that members of
the Hitler Youth abroad were utilised in this way. I can
assert that so much the more, since I know I would have
heard about it from the leaders of the Party in the various
foreign countries. I know also nothing at all about the
training of the Hitler Youth as paratroopers or anything
similar. I consider these assertions as absolutely pure
invention.

Q. Then I may assume, as the result of your testimony, that
things of that sort, on the basis of the entire
organization, would certainly have come to your knowledge,
if something like that had occurred or had been planned; is
that correct?

A. Yes, indeed.

Q. And then, witness, I have a last question:

Here in the Courtroom a further assertion was also made
about the Hitler Youth. It was asserted that at Lemberg the
following once took place: That the Hitler Youth or members
of the Hitler Youth had used little children as targets.
Also in this report no details of course were given, but
only the assertion was made. The following would interest
me:

As you know the Hitler Youth had, I believe, a membership
toward the end of about seven to eight million.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, does that have anything to do
with the Ausland Organization?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, it does in so far as my client, the
defendant von Schirach, is charged with the fact that the
Hitler Youth abroad committed such atrocities.

THE PRESIDENT: It was not suggested that they did this
abroad, was it, that Hitler Youth even used children as
targets abroad?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, indeed, it was said that at Lemberg, in the
Government General, not in Germany, which means abroad.

THE PRESIDENT: You mean after the war began?

DR. SAUTER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: I thought this witness was speaking about the
same organization before the war.

DR. SAUTER: I do not know whether he was also talking about
the Ausland Organization during the war. But in any case,
Mr. President, the witness knows these facts, for he was the
head of the Ausland Organization. Therefore this witness
seems to me especially qualified to give us information on
these matters.

THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me that we are very far from the
point, but you can go on.

                                                   [Page 22]

DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President, for otherwise I would have
to call this witness for my client again.

DR. SAUTER:

Q. Witness, do you at all recall the last question I put to
you, whether you have any knowledge that the Hitler Youth,
or members of the Hitler Youth abroad, which was under your
jurisdiction, is supposed to have committed atrocities of
that nature?

A. I regret to tell you, Mr. Attorney, that the Government
General did not belong to the Ausland Organization, that I
was never there, and therefore am not in a position to state
anything on that point. Obviously the erroneous opinion
seems to exist that the Government General, like the Party,
was connected with the Ausland Organization, however that
was not the case. I had no organisational powers there.

DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions.

DR. SERVATIUS (Attorney for the Organization of the
Political Leaders): Witness, to what extent, in your
capacity as Reichsleiter of the Ausland Organization, were
you informed about the foreign political intentions of the
Fuehrer?

A. I was not Reichsleiter, but Gauleiter, and was never
informed of the foreign political intentions of the Fuehrer.

Q. Do you know whether the Fuehrer basically advocated to
your organization an understanding with England?

A. I do not quite understand your question.

Q. Before the war did Hitler, in your presence and before
the other Gauleiters, many times emphasize the fact that he
wanted at all costs an understanding with England and that
you also were to work for its achievement?

A. I received no orders in this respect from the Fuehrer,
but from the Deputy to the Fuehrer. The Fuehrer never
discussed foreign political matters with me during the
twelve years I was in office.

DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any members of the defence counsel want to
ask any other questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY LIEUT.-COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:

Q. Your Ausland Organization was organized in the same way
as the Party in Germany was organized, is that not so?

A. Not in all points, because there were various
organizations within the body of the Party in the Reich
which were not intended for foreign countries, for example,
the Office for Municipal Policy.

Q. Perhaps I can shorten my question: Did you have
Hoheitstrager abroad in the same way as you had them in
Germany?

A. Yes.

Q. The organization in each country was under the
Landesgruppenleiter, is that correct?

A. In almost all countries.

Q. And under many there were lower-ranking Hoheitstrager?

A. Yes, the Ortsgruppenleiter.

Q. Was the result of that, that you had your German
population in foreign countries well organized and known to
the leaders in those countries?

A. To a great extent that might be correct, but it was not
so thoroughly organized, nor could it be practical because
the leader of the Party did not know all the Reich Germans
in the country concerned.

Q. Did it never occur to you that in the event of your army
invading a country where you had a well-organized
organization, that organization would be of extreme military
value?

A. No, that was not the sense and the purpose of the Ausland
Organizations and no offices ever approached me in this
connection.

                                                   [Page 23]

Q. Are you telling this Tribunal now that when the various
countries of  Europe were in fact invaded by the German Army
your local organizations did nothing to assist them in a
military or semi-military capacity?

A. Yes, indeed.

Q. Very well. Now, let me ask you about something else for a
moment: You had, had you not, an efficient system of
reporting from your Landesgruppenleiter to your head office
in Berlin?

A. Yes.

Q. I think you have said yourself, did you not, in your
interrogations, that you took an especial pride in the speed
with which your reports came back?

A. I did not say that, I believe, with respect to speed but
rather with respect to the accuracy of their political
survey.

Q. In fact, your reports did come back with great speed, did
they not?

A. I cannot say that in general. It depended on the
possibility of dispatching these reports quickly to Berlin,
and how far that was the case in individual instances, I
naturally cannot say today. In any case, I had no special
speed or acceleration measures at my disposal.

Q. In fact, you told your interrogator - and I can refer you
to it if necessary - that on occasions you got back
information before Himmler or the Foreign Office had got
similar information.

A. That must be a misunderstanding. It concerns the
political reports from the Landesgruppenleiter which I
transmitted from Berlin to the different offices.

Q. Very well, we will leave the speed out. I have it from
you that you had an efficient system of reporting, had you
not?

A. In order to answer that question I would have to know in
respect to what reports I am supposed to have had an
efficient system of reporting.

Q. That was going to be my next question. I was going to ask
you: What in fact did your Landesgruppenleiter report to
you?

A. The Landesgruppenleiter reported of their own accord to
me, if they had anything of importance which they wanted
sent to the competent offices in the Reich.

Q. Did they ever report anything which might have been of
military or semi-military value?

A. That might have been true in a few cases, although at
present I cannot recall any special cases.

Q. They were never given any instructions, were they, to
report that kind of information?

A. No, generally not.

Q. How did you get your reports back? Did you have wireless
sets with your organizations in foreign countries?

A. No, we did not have any such transmission or wireless
stations. Reports either came through courier in special
cases or were brought by individuals to Germany.

Q. After the war started did your organizations continue in
neutral countries?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they never have wireless sets reporting back
information?

A. I do not know anything about that. I do not believe they
had them, for I would have had to know about it.

Q. Now, I want just to ask you about one or two documents.
Would you look at Document 3258-PS-My Lord, that is Exhibit
GB 262; I have copies of the extract for the Tribunal and
members of defence counsel. I expect you read English - the
book itself is coming.

A. Yes.

Q. There you have before you a copy of some extracts from
it. Would you look at the bottom of the first page, last
paragraph commencing "In 1938 ..." Did you have a
Landesgruppenleiter in the Netherlands of the name of
Butting?

                                                   [Page 24]

A. Yes.

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