From sbartman@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 6 15:02:57 PDT 1996 Article: 41457 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:34:50 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 81 Message-ID: <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: wsx-nc1-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 6:41:16 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41457 alt.politics.nationalism.white:21718 alt.conspiracy:56140 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:316663 alt.politics.radical-left:95629 alt.politics.perot:48158 alt.politics.usa.republican:210320 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote: >> The point is that food producers are PAYING Jewish rabbis pretty good >>salaries -- rabbis who are the officials of a very small (-1% of the >>population) but vocal (phenomenally over-represented in journalism, >>politics and the media) specific RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- salaries for >>doing something which, for most buyers of their products, adds NO VALUE >>to what the company sells. >Are they? And your proof for this is....? How much does a >company pay to have a product certified as kosher? What does >"kosher" mean? First of all, let me say that the person who began this thread is an uneducated, bigoted ass. That said, I have a bit of experience with this issue. I worked as a product manager for Kraft General Foods (Maxwell House Coffee), and Nabisco (Planters nuts); both divisions produce products certified kosher. The easiest way to dissolve this pinhead's contentions is to say that the companies certifying kosher do not do so only to capture the Jewish consumer. It is a fact of long standing, which has been HEAVILY researched through statistically valid means, that non-Jewish consumers, in the aggregate, consider a kosher mark proof of a 'higher' quality product. Many do not know exactly what the mark means, but they know it is 'a good thing' and they look for it. This is such a well-known phenomenon that it is not even debated in the world of food marketing. What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of, one that processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a full day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records, invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his organization's fee. One could contrast this number with the amount spent by Planters to comply with the recent FDA-mandated nutritional label changes-- over $5 million. Throughout the US food industry the figure was over $2 billion. These costs were also passed through to the consumer. There are at least three competing rabbinical groups that offer certification, and it gets quite complex (some are stricter than others, some consumers will only recognize one or the other), but it can be said there is a crude form of price competition among them. Given the price per pound for nuts, and extrapolating to an annual market basket, I find a $300/yr/family figure absurd. The pre-Passover inspection, which requires the plant be taken down and thouroughly cleaned, is also a 'good thing' for consumers. The plant managers told me they were not inconvenienced by it, but rather scheduled training and preventative maintenance around the rabbi's visit. Just part of the annual cycle. Finally, although the Jewish community is concentated in the US in several key cities (like NYC), for some products their patronage is important. Maxwell House's strongest US market (out of 16 even geographic divisions) was the New York market. The Maxwell House Passover Haggadah (sp?) consumer promotion, where the company prints up the booklets used in the seder ceremony, and includes coupons, is the longest continuosly running consumer promotion in the United States, going back to the early 1930s--they've never missed a year, and are quite proud of the fact. So, the kosher certification issue is, like most issues when you actually know what you're talking about, quite complex. Which doesn't make it a conspiracy. At worst it's a naked business decision; at best a generous, inclusionary gesture to a religious group with a proud history and a stake in the foundation of the United States. Regards Steve Bartman sbartman@ix.netcom.com From sbartman@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 6 19:30:16 PDT 1996 Article: 41487 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada] Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 15:17:35 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 301 Message-ID: <4p6t6l$oac@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p5g29$f08@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wsx-nc1-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 06 10:24:05 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41487 alt.politics.nationalism.white:21732 alt.conspiracy:56184 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:316736 alt.politics.radical-left:95675 alt.politics.perot:48167 alt.politics.usa.republican:210404 Well, Chuckie, I certainly seem to have gotten your attention with a few facts. Not used to ranting at someone who's been there-done that are you? joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote: > Not true. They do it to avoid the hassle of becoming the brunt of >media attacks on them: attacks which could, if they occurred, have a >serious effect on sales. Funny, when I looked around the conference room when the annual decision to recertify came up I didn't see your pale, sweating face there. Are you invisible? Telepathic? Nor did I see you holding up a placard at the back of the room when the Marketing Research staff presented analysis of volume behavior between kosher and non-kosher SKUs. (You did study what an SKU is in your marketing curriculum, didn't you Chuckie?) So, it seems your presumption is nothing more than a paranoid fantasy, which we knew, but that you continue to reenforce with each new post. .. > No company would want to risk being demonized in the media because it >refused to hire a rabbi (at $5,000.00/day, as you admit below) to >"certify" its food products as "kosher." This is a valid statement, but since its premise is untrue, the statement is untrue. (You did study classical Logic in school, right Chuckie?) And no need for the quote marks: certify its food products as kosher is perfectly fine and proper. Your attempt to show the process as odd or improper is lame and displays your ignorance. Not only would it likely be >openly characterized as "a neo-nazi company" but it might become the >victim of the all-too-typical, politically-motivated media "hit piece" >(e.g. "Without rabbis to "supervise," is Company X now selling possibly >unwholesome and dangerous food products? We look into this startling >possibility in tonight's show.") Perhaps in the media sources a sad, little person such as yourself peruse. >> It is a fact of long standing, which has been HEAVILY >>researched through statistically valid means, > And your proof for this assertion is . . . ? Internal, proprietary documents you have no right to see. Or, you could go to any business school library and read the volumes of research open to the public. I've done my work, I won't do yours. >> that non-Jewish >>consumers, in the aggregate, consider a kosher mark proof of a >>'higher' quality product. > Look, superstitions such as that "kosher" = "better" are notoriously >hard to fight. "Consider" does not equal "superstition." You twist my words. Clumsily. And, there is no need to "fight" the perception. It exists, it makes some consumers more secure. That is, in marketing terms, one of the "bundle of benefits" in the product and the transaction stream. > However, rather than continue -- indeed, REINFORCE -- people's >superstitions about this, Moving from another untrue premise ("keeping kosher=superstition"), we move to another untrue conclusion. Where did you say you went to school? it would be more ethical for companies to >educate the consumer as to how it's really quite unnecessary for a >rabbi to be paid $10,000.00 for two-days "work" to "certify" what the >largely non-Jewish consumers buy. Because who, ultimately, picks up the >tab for the rabbi's $5,000.00/day salary? The largely non-Jewish >consumers, of course. > There's so much that is wrong, misinformed, and just plain dumb here I don't know where to start. First, companies exist to produce returns on their shareholders' money, while complying with laws and regulations. Period. "Ethical" ain't in there unless, as is usually the case, it aids the overall goal of profitability. Actively seeking to drive away paying customers would not be ethical, just stupid. Second, the kosher mark is not "unnecessary" if the firm wants sales >from observant Jews. Since their money is as good as anyone else's the question becomes a cost/benefit analysis. I've told you that these are in fact performed; the cost of certification is minimal versus the revenue and margin attained from those sales. Presto, a decision emerges. Certify, and make money. See, no conspiracy, Chuckie. Fiduciary law perhaps, serving the shareholders perhaps, but no master plan to cheat Chuckie. Third, the dollar figure I quoted is not for "two-day's work", it is an annual fee for everything associated with the mark, including the reputation of the organization giving it. Do you think the Good Housekeeping seal, or the Underwriter's Laboratory mark are free? Firms pay a LOT of consultants, trade groups, lobbyists, designers, researchers, and trade magazines in the course of building and running a business. Ten thousand dollars is nothing. And, again, it's a private business decision that you are not being invited to vote on, except with your retail dollar, or by becoming a voting shareholder. >> Many do not know exactly what the mark >>means, but they know it is 'a good thing' and they look for it. > Wow, as an employee -- a MANAGER, at that! -- of Kraft and Nabisco >you don't seem to have a very high opinion of the consumers of those >companies' products. They "do not know exactly what the mark means, but >they know it is a 'good thing' . . . " > I wonder what the top officials of those companies would think of an >employee who apparently looks down on the very people who buy their >merchandise? Well, they promoted me, so . . . Again, you display a total lack of understanding of marketing or consumer behavior. I had a tremendous respect for our consumers, and their obvious high intelligence at choosing our products. I stood in the aisles of grocery stores many times discussing their perceptions of our products in detail, I attended lots of focus groups, I read mail and comment cards. I never tried to change their perceptions about a matter of personal preference, however. (This is clearly different than providing factual information or correcting a factual mis-perception.) No businessperson in a right mind sets out to say to a potential customer: "What you believe is stupid. Now, would you like to buy something of mine?" Maybe in Chuckie-land that's smart, but then we know you don't live in the same world the rest of us do. >> one that >>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's >>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was >>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a full >>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records, >>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his >>organization's fee. >> >>One could contrast this number with the amount spent by Planters to >>comply with the recent FDA-mandated nutritional label changes-- over >>$5 million. Throughout the US food industry the figure was over $2 >>billion. These costs were also passed through to the consumer. > Unbelievable, how you're desperately trying to connect two entirely >DIFFERENT things? > The FDA-mandated nutritional labels were NOT "mandated" by any >particular RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- much less one that comprises less >than 1% of the nation's consumers! > The FDA is a G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T-A-L agency, certainly *NOT* a >smallish (-1% of the population) traditionally exclusivist >RACIAL/RELIGIOUS organization. As such, it's purpose is to serve ALL >the people -- not just the members of a specific racial/religious >congregation. > Duh! Duh! back. Chuckie plainly shows he cannot think non-linearly. I was showing an order-of-magnitude example of typical packaging costs unrelated to the kosher issue. Again, the decision to certify, or not (many firms choose not to) is a PRIVATE business decision. If the government mandated certification I'd be on this NG yelling as loudly as I could. But they don't. (BTW, if you think the FDA reg. changes were not motivated by interest groups I have a bridge to sell you.) And, just for kicks, since you keep bringing up this 1% figure for the Jewish population, what would be the EXACT size a specific group should be before a firm should perform any special, cost-incurring operation on its product line? I need an exact figure, Chuckie, with analysis. Upper management won't settle for your kind of squishy logic. Don't worry, we'll wait. >> There are at least three competing rabbinical groups that offer >>certification, and it gets quite complex (some are stricter than >>others, some consumers will only recognize one or the other), but it >>can be said there is a crude form of price competition among them. > Yes, we can all certainly SEE that there's real "price competition >among them"! NOT! I've seen the bids. And you've seen them where? . . . > $5,000.00 for 8 hours of "work" spent "crawling over equipment, >looking at records and invoices," etc. "Tough work but somebody's got >to do it," I guess, huh? Again, you completely miss the point. You insist on implying these rabbis do some sort of "drive-by" certification. I'm telling you they take their responsibility much more seriously. They get dirty, they sweat, they ask questions. I've seen management consultants paid a lot more for a lot less. And yes, since you brought it up, "somebody" has to do it, and that somebody is a professional who studied for many years to attain his station. When you go to the doctor do you expect to pay? > I can just hear the bidding rabbi now: "Mr. Food Company President, >believe me, I'm LOSING money on this deal! $5000.00/day for two days of >work in your factory per year: that's my FINAL OFFER! A guy's gotta >make a living, you know! And I won't even charge you extra for making >me climb the ladder to reach that mixer!" Don't quit your day job, Chuckie. There are already enough bad stand-up acts. >>Given the price per pound for nuts, and extrapolating to an annual >>market basket, I find a $300/yr/family figure absurd. I see you didn't respond to this. What's the matter? You were pretty fast and loose with the $300 claim. Are you dropping this absurd (I say again) contention? >>The pre-Passover inspection, which requires the plant be taken down >>and thouroughly cleaned, is also a 'good thing' for consumers. The >>plant managers told me they were not inconvenienced by it, but rather >>scheduled training and preventative maintenance around the rabbi's >>visit. Just part of the annual cycle. > This statement sheds light on possible dangers that we weren't even >aware of. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. "Possible dangers!" Run for the hills! It's okay Chuckie, the FDA (and the USDA on the raw material) do a pretty good job, no conspiracy loons need involve themselves. > It seems that there may be a temptation for companies to neglect >"scheduled training and preventative maintenance" until the word gets >out that "THE RABBI'S COMING! HURRY, WE GOTTA CLEAN THIS PLACE UP!" > What happens during the other 364 days of the year before and after >the day of the rabbi's visit? Normal sanitation to company QA norms (which exceed the FDA requirements.) Normal corrective maintenance. Have you ever worked around machinery, Chuckie? It's hard to do preventative maitenance (again, another private business decision to minimize overhead through unplanned downtime) on rotating machinery. And, if you knew the first thing about the process involved in kosher certification, and Jewish dietary laws, you wouldn't have posted the above. But you don't, and you did, and I'm not going to educate you here. > Proper sanitation, maintenance and training of personnel should not >be the direct results of an impending visit of a rabbi or anyone else, >but YEAR-ROUND practices. GIve it a rest, fool. >>Finally, although the Jewish community is concentated in the US in >>several key cities (like NYC), for some products their patronage is >>important. Maxwell House's strongest US market (out of 16 even >>geographic divisions) was the New York market. The Maxwell House >>Passover Haggadah (sp?) consumer promotion, where the company prints >>up the booklets used in the seder ceremony, and includes coupons, is >>the longest continuosly running consumer promotion in the United >>States, going back to the early 1930s--they've never missed a year, >>and are quite proud of the fact. > That makes sense. Of course it does, as does everything else I've told you. > But why must consumers in other parts of the country which have >negligible Jewish populations also have to contribute towards that >$5,000.00/day salary the rabbi receives? Listen carefully, Chuckie, I'll only say this one more time: they don't have to "must" anything. It's a market. Don't participate if that little 'U' or 'K' bothers you. Eat sand for all I care. It's a private transaction, freely entered into. If you don't like the price--seeya. >>So, the kosher certification issue is, like most issues when you >>actually know what you're talking about, quite complex. Which doesn't >>make it a conspiracy. At worst it's a naked business decision; at best >>a generous, inclusionary gesture to a religious group with a proud >>history and a stake in the foundation of the United States. >> > . . . OR it could also be something which, The stable currency of conspiracy loons: :Or it COULD be . . ." while it really WOULDN'T >make sense in a truly free, "un-politicized" market in the vast >majority of cases, IS "a naked business decision" in the sense that >it's ALWAYS prudent business practice to avoid provoking a small but >vocal and politically-powerful minority which could damage your company >through media "hit pieces" and through sheer government intervention. >THAT'S the "naked business decision" these companies make, and I >understand why they do so . . . though I wish their leaders were in a >position to be more frank about it. Their leaders are not obligated to be frank with Chuckie about anything, zip, zilch, nada. They work for their shareholders. Once you understand that basic fact, get back to me. Until then, you're just tiresome. Steve Bartman >>sbartman@ix.netcom.com From myra@primenet.com Fri Jun 7 13:53:04 PDT 1996 Article: 41663 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!myra From: Myra DinnersteinNewsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt. Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 7 Jun 1996 03:40:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <4p90u2$32u@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4p83b5$kku@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> X-Posted-By: myra@usr5.primenet.com Steve Bartman wrote: : My wife (a Christian) lived in an apartment house in Brooklyn where : some of the apartments had a second 'Passover kitchen' that was : scrubbed and sealed the rest of the year. Also as you say two sets of : dishes, one milk, one meat. At Passover the Jewish residents would : give her a dollar and say: "You own all the leaven in my home" in case : they missed a crumb while cleaning. I find traditions this deep : fascinating; I wish my heritage had more like them. Jews aren't allowed to own "chametz" (leavened foods) during Passover, so they sell it to a Gentile neighbor, friend, etc. Some synagogues make arrangements with churches to sell the chametz to them. : I believe Muslims (somebody will correct me I'm sure) call their rules : Halal. In New York you often see 'Halal Meat' advertised. I had a : Muslim professor in college (Iranian) who was an imam (he could do : marriages I remember), and he discussed his ritual slaughter duties : once. I think this is a big part of halal--the kid may not be killed : in sight of its mother, etc. As I say, I don't really know, so no : flames. Would like to learn if anyone knows more. I'm not that certain about Islamic laws about food, but I believe they are quite similar to Judaic laws. Also, Seventh Day Adventists also look for and purchase kosher products. Take care, Myra From sbartman@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 8 06:58:46 PDT 1996 Article: 41709 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 01:56:20 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4p82k5$bff@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <6JUN199612371462@cmi.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: wsx-nc4-21.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 06 9:02:45 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41709 alt.politics.nationalism.white:21854 alt.conspiracy:56473 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:317399 alt.politics.radical-left:96024 alt.politics.perot:48283 alt.politics.usa.republican:211154 dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote: >In article <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman) writes... > Thank you for an excellent post rebutting this kosher tax antisemitism. You're very welcome. > >>What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of, one that >>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's >>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was >>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a full >>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records, >>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his >>organization's fee. > So, based on these figures it would seem that the cost of the rabbi > roughly works out to be one onehundredth of one cent for each half > pound container of peanuts. So if a person consumed a half pound > container of peanuts every day for a year, that person would have > contributed about 3.7 cents towards the commission of the rabbi. A far > cry from $300. If I remember my scanner data, a 'heavy user' of peanuts (household, not individual) buys about 50 ounces PER YEAR. (This is a problem. The category is declining as Frito et al have taken over salty snacks.) I don't have a calculator handy, but you can see the order of magnitude. Of course, most kosher issues settle on prepared meat and dairy products, so you'd have to put them in a market basket. But many other products either can never be kosher, or their producers don't bother. Regional and family-run businesses often don't do certification so they'd be excluded from the basket. Even so, if the typical cost of the basket is more than $.25/household/year I'd be surprised. Steve From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Sat Jun 8 15:53:15 PDT 1996 Article: 41285 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!cmi.arizona.edu!dmittleman From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 5 Jun 1996 17:48 MST Organization: University of Arizona (BPA) Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5JUN199617484118@cmi.arizona.edu> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41285 alt.politics.nationalism.white:21628 alt.conspiracy:55953 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:316272 alt.politics.radical-left:95441 alt.politics.perot:48093 alt.politics.usa.republican:209900 In article <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes... > "Refuse to hire a rabbi to ensure the products you sell are kosher, >will you? Don't be surprised if *we* (Jews) start POUNDING you, >demonizing your company and products relentlessly in the media! How'd >ya like to see a grotesquely-drawn picture of one of your company's >products on the cover of TIME or NEWSWEEK or featured in a '60 Minutes' >'hit piece' under the bold heading 'WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT DANGEROUS, >SHODDY PRODUCTS'? If you thought our recent covers of Newt >Gingrich-as-Scrooge or depictions of Pat Buchanan as a neo-nazi were >bad, we could give YOU the same kind of treatment if you don't put our >rabbis in your factories and pay them good salaries! This is stupid hate mongering. There are lots of products in the supermarket which aren't kosher. And the kosher community simply ignores them. Every bit of meat in the average grocery store butcher section is unkosher. Most processed foods which includes meat - including every TV dinner - is unkosher. Every frozen pizza with pepperoni or sausage on it is unkosher. Lots of other foods in your average grocery store are unkosher. The kosher Jewish community simply ignores those foods. They don't make a fuss about them. And IF you think it costs more money to produce kosher food, it is obvious from the list above that you have lots of non-kosher choices to pick from in every grocery store. There is no kosher tax. There is no issue here. All there is here are hate mongering anti-semitics who think they can lie to the masses to score a few points. Lets see you rebut this, Joebuck. daniel david mittleman =========================================================================== Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!" From kamamer@zap.io.org Sun Jun 9 13:17:55 PDT 1996 Article: 42143 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail From: kamamer@zap.io.org (karl mamer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 8 Jun 1996 10:43:21 -0400 Organization: Internex Online (shell.io.org), Toronto, Ontario, Canada Lines: 54 Message-ID: <4pc3i9$8on@zap.io.org> References: <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42143 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22092 alt.conspiracy:56989 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:318576 alt.politics.radical-left:96554 alt.politics.perot:48480 alt.politics.usa.republican:212474 joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes: > >One, please cite who these economists are and where they've published > this data. > > A legitimate request. I'll look up the specific references (names, > dates of publication, etc.) as soon as I can get to a library. In the > meantime, if anyone has that info available, please post it ASAP. I'm waiting. I think we all are waiting. As it has been pointed out to you, there are about 5,000,000 families in Canada. At $300 per family, that's 1.5 billion dollars. Are you certain kosher labelling is really a 1.5 billion dollar industry in Canada? > salaries -- rabbis who are the officials of a very small (-1% of the > population) but vocal (phenomenally over-represented in journalism, > politics and the media) specific RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- salaries for > doing something which, for most buyers of their products, adds NO VALUE > to what the company sells. Does bilingual labelling add value to a product? Does paying Dennis Rodman $30,000,000 to endorse a running shoe add value? > That's a TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE! Please don't keep confusing them: > 1. In the case of the new bilingually-labelled products, > manufacturers are making their products MORE ACCESSIBLE to a large > group by "using their language." Ummm, again kosher labelling allows a company to make its products accessible to a large group. How exactly are they totally different issues, then? > US are also Roman Catholics: so far as I know, no company has hired and > paid full-time Catholic priests to "bless" their products. Can you Modern Catholics have no dietary laws and don't need a priest to bless their products. And don't you suppose christian religous superstitions also add to certain costs? For example, there are american christians lobbying to get highway 666 renamed. If that goes through, how much is it going to cost non-christians in taxes to replace all the signs? > 2. There are WAY, WAY more Catholic Hispanic consumers in the US than > Jewish ones and, not only that, but the birth rates of Hispanic > consumers are skyrocketing -- while those of Jews have been plummeting > for years with no change expected. When you go to the library to look up that $300 figure, also get some figures on population ratios and birth rates to back that one up. -- "BTW please have your chimp give me a call one day." - Bob Allisat From henri@alaska.net Sun Jun 9 13:23:55 PDT 1996 Article: 22171 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!nwnews.wa.com!nwfocus.wa.com!calvino.alaska.net!nntp.alaska.net!usenet From: Henry Ayre Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 9 Jun 1996 18:16:58 GMT Organization: Internet Alaska Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sol-p1-52.alaska.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42260 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22171 alt.conspiracy:57122 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:318789 alt.politics.radical-left:96629 alt.politics.perot:48517 alt.politics.usa.republican:212754 No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal, and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of that fact for, well, just ages. The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? Wake up America! H. Ayre. From dbraun@u.washington.edu Sun Jun 9 13:23:56 PDT 1996 Article: 22175 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!homer12.u.washington.edu!dbraun From: "D. Braun" Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:36:35 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: homer12.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: dbraun In-Reply-To: <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42265 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22175 alt.conspiracy:57135 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:318821 alt.politics.radical-left:96645 alt.politics.perot:48524 alt.politics.usa.republican:212790 On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote: > No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's > neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' > exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal, > and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at > all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of > that fact for, well, just ages. Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, and an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you put it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first hand knowledge of the kosher certification. He exhaustively debunked Charles' wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation boiled down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many costs a firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, and second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust of a family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense of the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time commercials for Nilla Wafers!! Where is the advertising plot? Could it be a "plot" by Nabisco to increase sales? Should all advertising be outlawed because it sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact? > The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in > France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after > all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will > believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. > > But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the > kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will > NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? > > Wake up America! H. Ayre. And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and out. Dave Braun From henri@alaska.net Sun Jun 9 14:57:53 PDT 1996 Article: 42260 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!nwnews.wa.com!nwfocus.wa.com!calvino.alaska.net!nntp.alaska.net!usenet From: Henry Ayre Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 9 Jun 1996 18:16:58 GMT Organization: Internet Alaska Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sol-p1-52.alaska.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42260 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22171 alt.conspiracy:57122 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:318789 alt.politics.radical-left:96629 alt.politics.perot:48517 alt.politics.usa.republican:212754 No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal, and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of that fact for, well, just ages. The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? Wake up America! H. Ayre. From dbraun@u.washington.edu Sun Jun 9 14:57:54 PDT 1996 Article: 42265 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!homer12.u.washington.edu!dbraun From: "D. Braun" Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:36:35 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: homer12.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: dbraun In-Reply-To: <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42265 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22175 alt.conspiracy:57135 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:318821 alt.politics.radical-left:96645 alt.politics.perot:48524 alt.politics.usa.republican:212790 On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote: > No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's > neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' > exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal, > and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at > all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of > that fact for, well, just ages. Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, and an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you put it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first hand knowledge of the kosher certification. He exhaustively debunked Charles' wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation boiled down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many costs a firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, and second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust of a family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense of the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time commercials for Nilla Wafers!! Where is the advertising plot? Could it be a "plot" by Nabisco to increase sales? Should all advertising be outlawed because it sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact? > The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in > France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after > all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will > believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. > > But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the > kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will > NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? > > Wake up America! H. Ayre. And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and out. Dave Braun From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Sun Jun 9 14:57:55 PDT 1996 Article: 42267 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!cmi.arizona.edu!dmittleman From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada] Date: 9 Jun 1996 11:24 MST Organization: University of Arizona (BPA) Lines: 180 Distribution: world Message-ID: <9JUN199611243265@cmi.arizona.edu> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pdl6h$eo1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42267 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22178 alt.conspiracy:57148 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:318836 alt.politics.radical-left:96652 alt.politics.perot:48525 alt.politics.usa.republican:212803 In article <4pdl6h$eo1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes... > >>> Now, the former Kraft/Nabisco company manager who posted here >>>suggested, I believe, that the food preparation factories of those >>>companies were adequately sanitary year-round, not just before >Passover >>>when word spreads through the food plant that, "THE RABBI'S COMING!" >> >> Yes he did. What's your point? I see you did not address this. I take it you have no point here. >>> (I wonder how the blue-collar factory workers would feel, BTW, about >>>those Rabbi Inspectors if they were aware that, because of the >>>"strenuous" (not) "religious duties" the rabbis have to perform -- >such >>>as, our ex-company manager informs us, "climbing all over equipment, >>>checking invoices, etc." (tough work, to be sure!) -- if they were >>>aware that he was earning, for a mere FEW HOURS of such "tough work," >>>what it undoubtedly takes THEM, the regular food workers who do the >>>REALLY hard work day-in and day-out, months and months to earn!) >> >> As Steve said, the fee was for overall kosher oversite, it was not >>for simply climbing over the machines. The latter was your >>misunderstanding of how these things work. > > "Overall kosher oversite"? In TWO DAYS OF "WORK" . . . @ a salary of >$5.000.00 per day . . . go figure. As I address below, the two days of onsite work include lots of preparation time, followup time, and related overhead. Remember, this was the winning bid among three competing rabbinical groups. >> For example, in a completely unrelated field, my company charges >>$2,500 a day for my consulting time. You might say that I am getting >>paid about $300 a hour (I'm actually paid a salary much less than >>that), but in reality when you calculate in all of the up front >>preparation time, and the follow-up consultation time that is not >>charged directly, the $2,500 a day works out to somethign reasonable. >>I probably put in about 3 days work for every day on-site with a >>client. > > And WHO, exactly, pays for your $2,500. a day salary? The person or >company who hired you, that's who. Certainly NOT millions of American >consumers who had no desire to hire you in the first place. Wrongo, Sherlock. The firms that hire me must pass along to their customers their costs of doing business, just like Planters Peanuts does. In fact one company I did work for last year was Proctor & Gamble. So, in just the way the kosher certification added a small fraction of a penny to a jar of peanuts, my work added a very small fraction of a penny to every tube of Crest toothpaste, Tide detergent, and everything else P&G sells. This impacts you exactly the same way kosher certification does. If you buy a P&G product you are paying my consulting fee. AND you are doing it having at this moment absolutely no idea what topic I was consulting on. For all you know, my work impacts you no more than koshering peanuts does, but you gotta pay if you want to buy a P&G product. What do you think of that? >> I am confident that the $5,000 a day fee that Steve mentioned >>amounts to somthing similar - the rabbi's do a lot of work off-site as >>well as the work they do on-site for that fee. > > Yeah, I'm sure these rabbis really perform "a lot of work off-site" >for that fee! Such as topping-off their cars' tanks with the gas >allowances Bartman admitted the company also pays them (in addition to >the $10,000.00 per day they already receive for their two days "work"), >paying their waiters at the restaurants with those extra travel expense >allowances Bartman admitted the companies pays them . . . Tough job, >"climbing all over equipment, checking invoices" and such -- I can't >understand why EVERYONE, especially the food companies' 365-day-a-year >overwhelmingly non-Jewish, blue-collar employees, aren't paid $5000.000 >a day to do such work! Hey, you think you can do better, go and underbid the rabbis for the work. >> Also, just as I don't keep the $2,500 my company is paid, I am sure >>that an individual rabbi does not keep the $5,000 his organization is >paid. Much of it goes towards overhead. > > That's funny. :-) Glad you have a sense of humor. Somehow I have the feeling you have absolutely no idea what we are talking about, though. >>(Why do I not expect you to understand this?) > > I know, I'm just an "uppity" goy. Why should I be expected to >understand this? :-) Exactly. >>> In a competetive market -- especially at this time of corporate >>>down-sizing, a depressed market in many areas of the food industry, >>>factories closing all over the nation, etc. -- the idea that a >>company would WILLINGLY pay $500.00 to a non-employee to do something >>which essentially adds NOTHING of value to their products in the view >>of most consumers, is absurd. > >> Ah, but it does add percieved value to their customers. >>Customers, as Steve has told us, are more willing to buy the product >>if they see the kosher symbol on the label. He told us that this goes >>both for Jewish and non-Jewish purchasers. > > Look, cigarettes have "perceived value" for millions of smokers -- >otherwise they wouldn't buy them. But the government REQUIRES cigarette >packages to contain a *WARNING* from none other than the nation's >Surgeon General, exploding the cigarettes-are-good-for-you myth. > Perhaps the government should also REQUIRE "kosher-certified" >products to bear a similar *WARNING*: > "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE SPENT TOO MUCH FOR THIS PRODUCT. > THE FACT THAT THIS PRODUCT BEARS A MARK INDICATING > THAT IT IS 'KOSHER-CERTIFIED' DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS IN > ANY WAY SUPERIOR TO NON-KOSHER-CERTIFIED PRODUCTS. THE > REQUIREMENTS OF KOSHER DIETARY LAWS AFFECT ONLY A SMALL > PERCENTAGE (-.5%) OF THE GENERAL POPULATION. IF UNSURE AS > TO WHETHER YOU MUST FOLLOW A KOSHER DIET, PLEASE CONTACT > YOUR NEAREST RELIGIOUS LEADER." Great. Call your legislator and see if you can get this enacted. It's a democracy. Shoot your best shot. In the US, this would probably be unconstitutional, but you can get the constitution changed too - if it is that important to you, big guy. >>> Now, our ex-nut man [Bartman] states that many goy consumers >>>(i.e.non-Jewish >>>consumers) see the "U" for "kosher" on a product and it makes them, >>>however naively and superstitiously, feel as though that mark is a >>>sign of a higher-quality product -- EVEN WHEN THEY TYPICALLY CANNOT >>>EVEN DESCRIBE HOW, EXACTLY, BEING KOSHER "CHANGES" A PRODUCT! >>>(Answer: it doesn't! All it does is add to the cost of the product.) > >[deletia] > >>> BTW, am I the only one who's confident that the heavily-Jewish ACLU >>>would be extremely vocal in its outrage if, for example, food >>>producers started imprinting, say, crosses instead of rabbits and >>>"Easter eggs" on their products during Christian religious holidays? >>>I mean, look how bent out of shape they get when someone says a >>>prayer before a high school football game, or how incensed they are >>>when someone tries to place a cross next to the menorah at city halls >>>all over the country every December, as if on cue! > >> This is stupid. Grocery stores are filled with Christmas and >>Easter good in season. Neither the ACLU nor the Jewish community >>complains about private businesses marketing Christain goods. You >>have no examples of such complaints as none exist, do you? >>If fact, you don't really have any understanding about the difference >>between public and private religious symbolism, do you? > > Look, most people, I'm confident -- unlike you, apparently -- realize >that depictions of, say, Santa Claus, Christmas trees, or Easter eggs >on product packaging during holidays are NOT religious, but are >entirely secular in nature. > Which is clearly unlike the "U" symbol used to indicate that products >have received a SPECIAL RELIGIOUS "CERTIFICATION" BY AN ORDAINED >OFFICIAL (i.e. A RABBI) OF A PARTICULAR RELIGION. You haven't been following the Tom Moran thread about crosses and menorahs in alt.revisionism, have you? Grocery stores sell both religious and secular Christian items. The Jewish community doesn't care. The ACLU doesn't care. Do you care? Do you know that many grocery stores take up space with yortseit (sp?) candles? Do you have a problem with this? What if they sell rosary beads or some such thing? After all, these stores are private enterprises and they choose to sell products which they think will maximize their profits. Got a problem with that? You have a very strange view of this economic system. Methinks you are not too educated. You deleted my previous question of whether you have ever taken an economics class. Have you? daniel david mittleman =========================================================================== Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!" From dbraun@u.washington.edu Sun Jun 9 14:57:56 PDT 1996 Article: 42268 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!homer12.u.washington.edu!dbraun From: "D. Braun" Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada] Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:57:27 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p5g29$f08@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4p7l5a$34g@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4pf6at$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: homer12.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: dbraun In-Reply-To: <4pf6at$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42268 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22180 alt.conspiracy:57151 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:318839 alt.politics.radical-left:96654 alt.politics.perot:48526 alt.politics.usa.republican:212805 On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote: > I note someone has claimed that Spam is not part of the kosher food game. > Spam has pork in it. Wouldn't it be a riot if some Rabbi approved Spam as > a kosher food? In fact, one unnamed Rabbi did something similar in > approving a certain brand of lard (pork fat) as kosher! He desperately > wanted the fee that came with each approval. Shortly thereafter, the > approval was yanked by Jewish authorities in the hierarchy who > (ruefully?) saw that such a kosher approval would expose the whole scam > to ridicule. H. Ayre. This kind of reminds me of the Monty Python skit involving the Noreseman singing the praises of spam in a smokey meadhall of yore. It makes as much sense---but it was much funnier. Get a clue, get a life, or go die, loser. Dave Braun From yawen@enter.net Sun Jun 9 21:22:16 PDT 1996 Article: 42318 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.enter.net!usenet From: yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada] Date: 10 Jun 1996 00:10:01 GMT Organization: ENTER.NET Lines: 17 Message-ID: <4pfp4p$40h@news.enter.net> References: <4pdl6h$eo1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp147.enter.net X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.) > joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes: > > "Overall kosher oversite"? In TWO DAYS OF "WORK" . . . @ a salary of > $5.000.00 per day . . . go figure. I take it you have never heard of James MacNeill Whistler. > And WHO, exactly, pays for your $2,500. a day salary? The person or > company who hired you, that's who. Certainly NOT millions of American > consumers who had no desire to hire you in the first place. That, by the way, is the base fee for an expert's testimony in court in my neck of the woods. Expertise costs. --YFE From henri@alaska.net Sun Jun 9 21:22:19 PDT 1996 Article: 42343 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.cc.nctu.edu.tw!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!nwnews.wa.com!nwfocus.wa.com!calvino.alaska.net!nntp.alaska.net!usenet From: Henry Ayre Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada] Date: 9 Jun 1996 18:49:01 GMT Organization: Internet Alaska Inc. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <4pf6at$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4p5g29$f08@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4p7l5a$34g@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sol-p1-52.alaska.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42343 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22213 alt.conspiracy:57226 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319038 alt.politics.radical-left:96740 alt.politics.perot:48551 alt.politics.usa.republican:213039 I note someone has claimed that Spam is not part of the kosher food game. Spam has pork in it. Wouldn't it be a riot if some Rabbi approved Spam as a kosher food? In fact, one unnamed Rabbi did something similar in approving a certain brand of lard (pork fat) as kosher! He desperately wanted the fee that came with each approval. Shortly thereafter, the approval was yanked by Jewish authorities in the hierarchy who (ruefully?) saw that such a kosher approval would expose the whole scam to ridicule. H. Ayre. From dbraun@u.washington.edu Mon Jun 10 06:28:32 PDT 1996 Article: 42372 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!platform.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!homer18.u.washington.edu!dbraun From: "D. Braun" Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 21:36:00 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 87 Message-ID: References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> <4pfvde$f7v@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: homer18.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: dbraun In-Reply-To: <4pfvde$f7v@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42372 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22233 alt.conspiracy:57279 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319156 alt.politics.radical-left:96798 alt.politics.perot:48566 alt.politics.usa.republican:213166 Apparently, Charles isn't old enough to drive; on a related thread, he has repeatedly posted "I know you are, but what am I"; the guy is a victim of child abuse---Nazi propaganda forcefed him from a young age. He needs counseling, soon. Dave braun On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote: > In <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Henry Ayre writes: > > > >No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. > > Thank you. > > > Note Dave's > >neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' > >exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, > eternal, > >and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth > at > >all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware > of > >that fact for, well, just ages. > > Bartman must have heard that the "kosher tax" claim was once > "exhaustively debunked" on, I guess, "The Jerry Springer Show" so, > understandably, he believed it. > > >The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not > in > >France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after > >all, the most gullible people in the world, > > Probably true, in many respects. > And not just "gullible," but frequently dangerously "naive," > especially in matters in which they, themselves are being "screwed" > (i.e. the $50 billion Mexican bailout, unfair trade with Japan, etc.) > . . in a sense, I understand and appreciate the inability of some > here to think rationally regarding this issue because, quite admirably, > they don't wish for anyone to mistakenly think they're GENUINE > anti-semites or racists. > I suppose REAL anti-semites and racists would also be likely to > question the efficacy of paying an individual rabbi $10,000.00 > (+ expen$es) to look around a food factory two days a year; however, > THEY would be more likely to do so SOLELY because the principal > beneficiaries of kosher "certification" are Jews, and NOT on the purely > economic basis which, to me, is the more legitimate and compelling. > Really, what amazes me -- then again, maybe I, like a true American, > am just too "naive"! -- is the apparent near-unanimity of the online > Jews regarding this issue. Bartman, McOyVay, Alputz, Braunman . . . > they ALL chimed in as if "on cue," persistently defending the > imposition of the so-called "kosher tax." > I'm reminded, by this unanimity, of the weeks before the start of the > Persian Gulf War, when so many well-known Jewish anti-war "pacifists" > and vocal -- indeed, militant -- opponents of the Vietnam War seemingly > spoke as One Voice in support of the US military involvement in the > Middle East. Of course, even a "mainstram" commentator such as Pat > Buchanan was so outraged at this hypocrisy of the 1960s "born-again > Jewish hawks" that he referred to Israel's "amen corner" in the US > which, he said, was "banging the war drum," urging the US to get > involved militarily in the war. All this despite the fact that Jews > were notoriously under-represented in the ranks of those who would > actually be doing the fighting and being exposed to possible chemical > and biological weapons. > > > easily conned, who will > >believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. > > > > >But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that > the > >kosher inspection is done for FREE? > > This is exactly what I've been asking. > > Or that the food manufacturer will > >NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? > > Precisely. > > >Wake up America! H. Ayre. > > > > > From dbraun@u.washington.edu Mon Jun 10 06:28:33 PDT 1996 Article: 42376 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!platform.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!homer18.u.washington.edu!dbraun From: "D. Braun" Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 21:40:33 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 114 Message-ID: References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: homer18.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: dbraun In-Reply-To: <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42376 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22234 alt.conspiracy:57281 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319157 alt.politics.radical-left:96799 alt.politics.perot:48567 alt.politics.usa.republican:213167 I give up. At this point, the best rejoinder to "Charles'" piffle is laughter. Note: Below, where I mention that the costs involved with kosher certification (which might add pennies per year to a families entire food budget) would be dwarfed by spending on adds for Nilla Wafers, he protested: "Totally irrevelant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue?". 'nuff said. Dave Braun On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote: > In > "D. Braun" writes: > > > > > > > >On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote: > > > >> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note > Dave's > >> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' > >> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, > eternal, > >> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth > at > >> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been > aware of > >> that fact for, well, just ages. > > > >Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, > > See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How can > one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad > hominum attacks? > > > and > >an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you > put > >it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first > hand > >knowledge of the kosher certification. He exhaustively debunked > Charles' > >wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation > boiled > >down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many > costs a > >firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, > > I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the > general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was > important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it > might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning -- > for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many > rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear the > "U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection." > However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the > consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE > of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law. > So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the > R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1% > of consumers. > Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its > Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging of > which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon as > they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the market > bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at how > outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some > small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three > Magi! > Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for > companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! > > and > >second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust > of a > >family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense > of > >the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time > commercials > >for Nilla Wafers!! > > Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue? > > > Where is the advertising plot? Could it be a "plot" by > >Nabisco to increase sales? Should all advertising be outlawed because > it > >sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an > >antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact? > > > >> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not > in > >> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, > after > >> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will > >> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on > TV. > >> > >> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that > the > >> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer > will > >> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? > >> > >> Wake up America! H. Ayre. > > > >And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and > out. > > > > Dave Braun > > > > > From pgroff@txdirect.net Mon Jun 10 06:28:34 PDT 1996 Article: 42379 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!news.txdirect.net!news From: pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 04:54:59 GMT Organization: Internet Direct, Incorporated Lines: 90 Message-ID: <31b66447.18562068@news> References: <4okh7f$no4@news.sas.ab.ca> <4oktli$s16@scoop.eco.twg.com> <4ousdf$236i@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dt03-23.txdirect.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42379 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22235 On Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:06:34 -0400, WAHRHEIT wrote: >Extra costs, whether to pay for the KOSHER TAX for the rabbis, or any >other cost, is always passed on to the buyer. That is called >free-enterprise capitalism. Sorry, you lose, remember that if one should decide to use a particular seal on their product and they pay the supporting agency of that particular seal, it isn't a tax, but rather the cost of doing business, nothing to do with tax. > >This means that non-Jews are forced to pay, even when these charges are >hidden in the sales price. All people that purchase a product pay the manufacturer for all costs of bringing the product to the shelf, nothing is hidden, you could if you were smart enough ask the company or companies in question for a prospectus and spend some time deducing how much an item that the company produces actually costs. > >According to the Canadian Globe & Mail newspaper report provided by the >Jewish propaganda service, Revenue Canada Taxation is prosecuting those >who try to claim the KOSHER TAX. Mind you, an accountant with a Jewish >sounding name, who had two of his clients claim this as a tax deduction, >claims that he told his clients not to try claiming the KOSHER TAX as a >charitable deduction. Good you did mention "the Canadian Globe & Mail" which is a newspaper that you didn't quote, another case of nothing more then deception on the part of a rather poor manufacture of trash. > >In other words, people in Canada and the USA are FORCED to pay the KOSHER >TAX in their purchase price, while not being allowed to claim it legally >as a tax deduction. Again fool, since when is the cost of a product considered a tax?? Never. >Why should non-Jews be forced to subsidize the Jews? They never have, but you sure do lie a lot. > >And people wonder why there is growing anti-zionism. It isn't hard to see that what you really are talking about is your unrequented hatred for Jews, at least you could be that honest, but considering your other lies from above, I shouldn't look for any truths in your writing. What amazes me is the sheer courage that you have, my gosh you have even used an assumed name, or is it one you made up to show just how brave and couragous you really are. Are you even in this country?? Considering that Cris. com is an international provider. Poor little antisemite, no guts, no testosterone, and now not even a brain. >On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, ncrccjc wrote: > >> WAHRHEIT wrote: >> >You failed to answer the key points, namely why should non-Jews be forced >> >to pay extra for their goods, just to support Jews? >> > >> >Secondly, the scam by some to claim these payments as charitable >> >donations,when in fact they are merely legal extortion. >> > >> >Why not address the key points of the news story? >> >> ncrccjc responds: >> >> 1. Nobody is forced to pay "extra costs" to support Jews, this is usual >> anti-Jewish BS. In fact the minimal cost to assess a product as kosher >> has always been absorbed by the company. All you have to do is compare >> a product marked kosher with one that isn't. >> >> 2. Nobpody can claim these payments period. If you do you will be committing >> tax fraud. >> >> It always amazes me as to the lengths antisemites will go to spread their hateful poison. >> >> > _______________________________________________________________________ Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to _______________________________________________________________________ URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt P. GROFF From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:37 PDT 1996 Article: 42394 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 10 Jun 1996 02:16:16 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 100 Message-ID: <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca12-22.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 9:16:16 PM CDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42394 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22243 alt.conspiracy:57288 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319166 alt.politics.radical-left:96806 alt.politics.perot:48574 alt.politics.usa.republican:213175 In "D. Braun" writes: > > > >On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote: > >> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's >> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' >> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal, >> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at >> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of >> that fact for, well, just ages. > >Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How can one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad hominum attacks? > and >an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you put >it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first hand >knowledge of the kosher certification. He exhaustively debunked Charles' >wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation boiled >down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many costs a >firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning -- for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear the "U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection." However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law. So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1% of consumers. Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging of which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon as they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the market bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at how outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three Magi! Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! and >second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust of a >family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense of >the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time commercials >for Nilla Wafers!! Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue? > Where is the advertising plot? Could it be a "plot" by >Nabisco to increase sales? Should all advertising be outlawed because it >sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an >antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact? > >> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in >> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after >> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will >> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. >> >> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the >> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will >> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? >> >> Wake up America! H. Ayre. > >And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and out. > > Dave Braun > From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:38 PDT 1996 Article: 42395 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 10 Jun 1996 01:57:02 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 75 Message-ID: <4pfvde$f7v@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca12-22.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 09 8:57:02 PM CDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42395 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22244 alt.conspiracy:57289 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319167 alt.politics.radical-left:96807 alt.politics.perot:48575 alt.politics.usa.republican:213176 In <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Henry Ayre writes: > >No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Thank you. > Note Dave's >neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' >exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal, >and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at >all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of >that fact for, well, just ages. Bartman must have heard that the "kosher tax" claim was once "exhaustively debunked" on, I guess, "The Jerry Springer Show" so, understandably, he believed it. >The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in >France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after >all, the most gullible people in the world, Probably true, in many respects. And not just "gullible," but frequently dangerously "naive," especially in matters in which they, themselves are being "screwed" (i.e. the $50 billion Mexican bailout, unfair trade with Japan, etc.) . . in a sense, I understand and appreciate the inability of some here to think rationally regarding this issue because, quite admirably, they don't wish for anyone to mistakenly think they're GENUINE anti-semites or racists. I suppose REAL anti-semites and racists would also be likely to question the efficacy of paying an individual rabbi $10,000.00 (+ expen$es) to look around a food factory two days a year; however, THEY would be more likely to do so SOLELY because the principal beneficiaries of kosher "certification" are Jews, and NOT on the purely economic basis which, to me, is the more legitimate and compelling. Really, what amazes me -- then again, maybe I, like a true American, am just too "naive"! -- is the apparent near-unanimity of the online Jews regarding this issue. Bartman, McOyVay, Alputz, Braunman . . . they ALL chimed in as if "on cue," persistently defending the imposition of the so-called "kosher tax." I'm reminded, by this unanimity, of the weeks before the start of the Persian Gulf War, when so many well-known Jewish anti-war "pacifists" and vocal -- indeed, militant -- opponents of the Vietnam War seemingly spoke as One Voice in support of the US military involvement in the Middle East. Of course, even a "mainstram" commentator such as Pat Buchanan was so outraged at this hypocrisy of the 1960s "born-again Jewish hawks" that he referred to Israel's "amen corner" in the US which, he said, was "banging the war drum," urging the US to get involved militarily in the war. All this despite the fact that Jews were notoriously under-represented in the ranks of those who would actually be doing the fighting and being exposed to possible chemical and biological weapons. > easily conned, who will >believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. > >But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the >kosher inspection is done for FREE? This is exactly what I've been asking. Or that the food manufacturer will >NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? Precisely. >Wake up America! H. Ayre. > From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Mon Jun 10 06:28:39 PDT 1996 Article: 42398 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!cmi.arizona.edu!dmittleman From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 9 Jun 1996 22:25 MST Organization: University of Arizona (BPA) Lines: 106 Distribution: world Message-ID: <9JUN199622254949@cmi.arizona.edu> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42398 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22246 alt.conspiracy:57296 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319173 alt.politics.radical-left:96809 alt.politics.perot:48577 alt.politics.usa.republican:213182 Lots of blah blah blah below all of which begs the question: Joebuck, why do you then buy the kosher food? In article <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes... >In >"D. Braun" writes: >> >>On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote: >> >>> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note >Dave's >>> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' >>> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, >eternal, >>> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth >at >>> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been >aware of >>> that fact for, well, just ages. >> >>Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, > > See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How can >one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad >hominum attacks? > >> and >>an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you >put >>it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first >hand >>knowledge of the kosher certification. He exhaustively debunked >Charles' >>wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation >boiled >>down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many >costs a >>firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, > > I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the >general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was >important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it >might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning -- >for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many >rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear the >"U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection." > However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the >consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE >of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law. > So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the >R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1% >of consumers. > Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its >Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging of >which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon as >they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the market >bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at how >outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some >small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three >Magi! > Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for >companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! > > and >>second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust >of a >>family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense >of >>the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time >commercials >>for Nilla Wafers!! > > Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue? > >> Where is the advertising plot? Could it be a "plot" by >>Nabisco to increase sales? Should all advertising be outlawed because >it >>sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an >>antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact? >> >>> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not >in >>> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, >after >>> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will >>> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on >TV. >>> >>> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that >the >>> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer >will >>> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? >>> >>> Wake up America! H. Ayre. >> >>And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and >out. >> >> Dave Braun >> > daniel david mittleman =========================================================================== Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!" From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:44 PDT 1996 Article: 42434 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:33:11 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 122 Message-ID: <4pgj3n$p7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> <4pfvde$f7v@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca15-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 12:33:11 AM PDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42434 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22276 alt.conspiracy:57359 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319257 alt.politics.radical-left:96860 alt.politics.perot:48595 alt.politics.usa.republican:213291 In "D. Braun" writes: > >Apparently, Charles isn't old enough to drive; on a related thread, he has >repeatedly posted "I know you are, but what am I"; the guy is a victim of >child abuse---Nazi propaganda forcefed him from a young age. He needs >counseling, soon. >> Dave braun How sad . . . for you. You clearly have a deep-seated emotional need to fantasize that I grew up in some kind of "Nazi" home -- which would come as quite a shock to my folks, who are anything BUT "Nazis"! The fact of the matter is that I grew up with, and still hold dear to me, NUMEROUS Jewish friends AND even a coupla Jewish relatives -- all of whom I sincerely love. Even used to vacation, as a kid, with my family at Jewish hotels in the Catskills, in fact. Ever heard of The Nevele? Kutscher's ring a bell? I can still recall ordering THIRDS of bagels and lox every morning for a week . . . :-) Really, if you stopped being so closed-minded and LISTENED to the "other side" once in a while, rather than clinging to this idea that you "can't give an inch," you'd go a long way towards dispelling the evil of TRUE anti-semitism. >On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote: > >> In <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Henry Ayre writes: >> > >> >No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. >> >> Thank you. >> >> > Note Dave's >> >neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' >> >exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, >> eternal, >> >and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth >> at >> >all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware >> of >> >that fact for, well, just ages. >> >> Bartman must have heard that the "kosher tax" claim was once >> "exhaustively debunked" on, I guess, "The Jerry Springer Show" so, >> understandably, he believed it. >> >> >The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not >> in >> >France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after >> >all, the most gullible people in the world, >> >> Probably true, in many respects. >> And not just "gullible," but frequently dangerously "naive," >> especially in matters in which they, themselves are being "screwed" >> (i.e. the $50 billion Mexican bailout, unfair trade with Japan, etc.) >> . . in a sense, I understand and appreciate the inability of some >> here to think rationally regarding this issue because, quite admirably, >> they don't wish for anyone to mistakenly think they're GENUINE >> anti-semites or racists. >> I suppose REAL anti-semites and racists would also be likely to >> question the efficacy of paying an individual rabbi $10,000.00 >> (+ expen$es) to look around a food factory two days a year; however, >> THEY would be more likely to do so SOLELY because the principal >> beneficiaries of kosher "certification" are Jews, and NOT on the purely >> economic basis which, to me, is the more legitimate and compelling. >> Really, what amazes me -- then again, maybe I, like a true American, >> am just too "naive"! -- is the apparent near-unanimity of the online >> Jews regarding this issue. Bartman, McOyVay, Alputz, Braunman . . . >> they ALL chimed in as if "on cue," persistently defending the >> imposition of the so-called "kosher tax." >> I'm reminded, by this unanimity, of the weeks before the start of the >> Persian Gulf War, when so many well-known Jewish anti-war "pacifists" >> and vocal -- indeed, militant -- opponents of the Vietnam War seemingly >> spoke as One Voice in support of the US military involvement in the >> Middle East. Of course, even a "mainstram" commentator such as Pat >> Buchanan was so outraged at this hypocrisy of the 1960s "born-again >> Jewish hawks" that he referred to Israel's "amen corner" in the US >> which, he said, was "banging the war drum," urging the US to get >> involved militarily in the war. All this despite the fact that Jews >> were notoriously under-represented in the ranks of those who would >> actually be doing the fighting and being exposed to possible chemical >> and biological weapons. >> >> > easily conned, who will >> >believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. >> >> > >> >But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that >> the >> >kosher inspection is done for FREE? >> >> This is exactly what I've been asking. >> >> Or that the food manufacturer will >> >NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? >> >> Precisely. >> >> >Wake up America! H. Ayre. >> > >> >> >> > From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:45 PDT 1996 Article: 42435 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:45:45 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 137 Message-ID: <4pgjr9$4n1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <9JUN199622254949@cmi.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca15-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 12:45:45 AM PDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42435 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22277 alt.conspiracy:57360 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319258 alt.politics.radical-left:96861 alt.politics.perot:48596 alt.politics.usa.republican:213292 In <9JUN199622254949@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) writes: > > Lots of blah blah blah below all of which begs the question: > Joebuck, why do you then buy the kosher food? Simple. I missed my chance to buy Israel Bonds and now I'm guilt-ridden, so I've got to make it up somehow. >In article <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes... >>In >>"D. Braun" writes: >>> >>>On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote: >>> >>>> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note >>Dave's >>>> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' >>>> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, >>eternal, >>>> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth >>at >>>> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been >>aware of >>>> that fact for, well, just ages. >>> >>>Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, >> >> See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How can >>one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad >>hominum attacks? >> >>> and >>>an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you >>put >>>it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first >>hand >>>knowledge of the kosher certification. He exhaustively debunked >>Charles' >>>wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation >>boiled >>>down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many >>costs a >>>firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, >> >> I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the >>general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was >>important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it >>might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning -- >>for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many >>rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear the >>"U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection." >> However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the >>consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE >>of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law. >> So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the >>R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1% >>of consumers. >> Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its >>Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging of >>which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon as >>they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the market >>bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at how >>outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some >>small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three >>Magi! >> Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for >>companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! >> >> and >>>second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust >>of a >>>family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense >>of >>>the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time >>commercials >>>for Nilla Wafers!! >> >> Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue? >> >>> Where is the advertising plot? Could it be a "plot" by >>>Nabisco to increase sales? Should all advertising be outlawed because >>it >>>sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an >>>antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact? >>> >>>> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not >>in >>>> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, >>after >>>> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will >>>> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on >>TV. >>>> >>>> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that >>the >>>> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer >>will >>>> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? >>>> >>>> Wake up America! H. Ayre. >>> >>>And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and >>out. >>> >>> Dave Braun >>> >> > > daniel david mittleman >====================================================================== ==== > Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!" From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:28:46 PDT 1996 Article: 42437 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:38:59 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 152 Message-ID: <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca15-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 2:38:59 AM CDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42437 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22279 alt.conspiracy:57363 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319260 alt.politics.radical-left:96863 alt.politics.perot:48598 alt.politics.usa.republican:213294 In "D. Braun" writes: > >I give up. At this point, the best rejoinder to "Charles'" piffle is >laughter. Note: Below, where I mention that the costs involved with kosher >certification (which might add pennies per year to a families entire food >budget) would be dwarfed by spending on adds for Nilla Wafers, he >protested: "Totally irrevelant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse >the issue?". 'nuff said. > > Dave Braun Look, the REASON I said it's "totally irrelevant" is that it's like saying to someone who you've just overcharged for something, "You paid too much for your house, so why are you quibbling with me for overcharging you for this pair of shoes?" >On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote: > >> In >> "D. Braun" writes: >> > >> > >> > >> >On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote: >> > >> >> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note >> Dave's >> >> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' >> >> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, >> eternal, >> >> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth >> at >> >> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been >> aware of >> >> that fact for, well, just ages. >> > >> >Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, >> >> See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How can >> one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad >> hominum attacks? >> >> > and >> >an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you >> put >> >it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first >> hand >> >knowledge of the kosher certification. He exhaustively debunked >> Charles' >> >wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation >> boiled >> >down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many >> costs a >> >firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, >> >> I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the >> general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was >> important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it >> might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning -- >> for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many >> rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear the >> "U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection." >> However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the >> consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE >> of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law. >> So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the >> R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1% >> of consumers. >> Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its >> Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging of >> which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon as >> they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the market >> bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at how >> outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some >> small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three >> Magi! >> Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for >> companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! >> >> and >> >second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust >> of a >> >family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense >> of >> >the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time >> commercials >> >for Nilla Wafers!! >> >> Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue? >> >> > Where is the advertising plot? Could it be a "plot" by >> >Nabisco to increase sales? Should all advertising be outlawed because >> it >> >sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an >> >antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact? >> > >> >> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not >> in >> >> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, >> after >> >> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will >> >> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on >> TV. >> >> >> >> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that >> the >> >> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer >> will >> >> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? >> >> >> >> Wake up America! H. Ayre. >> > >> >And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and >> out. >> > >> > Dave Braun >> > >> >> >> > From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Mon Jun 10 06:28:48 PDT 1996 Article: 42443 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!mr.net!visi.com!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!cmi.arizona.edu!dmittleman From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 10 Jun 1996 03:24 MST Organization: University of Arizona (BPA) Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42443 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22289 alt.conspiracy:57374 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319281 alt.politics.radical-left:96874 alt.politics.perot:48605 alt.politics.usa.republican:213323 In article <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes... > > Look, the REASON I said it's "totally irrelevant" is that it's like >saying to someone who you've just overcharged for something, "You paid >too much for your house, so why are you quibbling with me for >overcharging you for this pair of shoes?" And I keep asking you something akin to, "why did you buy those shoes when there were other ones next to it on the rack which didn't have the overcharge attached?" You haven't answered me. And Ken keeps asking, "what overcharge? The increased market demand more than makes up for the extra charge. Can you demonstrate it really costs you more?" And you haven't answered him. Yes, the shoes are a good analogy. daniel david mittleman =========================================================================== Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!" From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Tue Jun 11 01:33:58 PDT 1996 Article: 22350 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!cmi.arizona.edu!dmittleman From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 10 Jun 1996 03:28 MST Organization: University of Arizona (BPA) Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <10JUN199603284136@cmi.arizona.edu> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjr9$4n1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42524 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22350 alt.conspiracy:57579 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319655 alt.politics.radical-left:97078 alt.politics.perot:48669 alt.politics.usa.republican:213801 In article <4pgjr9$4n1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes... >In <9JUN199622254949@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu >(Danny) writes: >> >> Lots of blah blah blah below all of which begs the question: >> Joebuck, why do you then buy the kosher food? > > Simple. I missed my chance to buy Israel Bonds and now I'm >guilt-ridden, so I've got to make it up somehow. Wonderful. I hope you work out your Jewish guilt. In the meantime it is nice that you acknowledge that no one else is making you buy the kosher food. [blah blah blah below deleted] daniel david mittleman =========================================================================== Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!" From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 06:55:45 PDT 1996 Article: 22370 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot Subject: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam Date: 11 Jun 1996 06:49:57 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 197 Message-ID: <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pi09q$dsl@scoop.eco.twg.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:22370 alt.politics.usa.republican:213973 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319813 alt.conspiracy:57641 alt.revisionism:42580 alt.politics.perot:48691 Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate Last-Modified: 1996/06/10 ADL Special Edition, January 1991 A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith -- Civil Rights Division Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate ---------------------------- The "Kosher Tax" Hoax "The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in America." The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax" to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews. Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the American population desires such markings, and that even the meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." The Facts Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for _kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the respective organizations and found to be in compliance with Jewish dietary law. The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. A May 18, 1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5 millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the market for them. Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods 'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant, >from a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection service, certifying foods and related products to be in compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell them, not to "the Jews."* The Lies The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters. The pamphlet begins: "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances, polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and pass the cost on to the consumer." The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party (NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party. The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet, "The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. "The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990 which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols May Be Changed to Hide Swindle." "Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last" asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION!" Bigotry Over a Beer Label With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of the company. Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United States for many years. Following along the lines of many other anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of banks, the media, and the government. In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses (numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to promote their political power to the point where this country has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)." Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and efforts connected with the kosher certification and that rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a Swastika for Nordics/Odinists." Beating the "Tax" Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April 25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states: "God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation) are being carefully herded closer and closer to International totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing." "You Don't Have to be Jewish..." Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990), "Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means higher quality food." Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g. taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism. *In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection, processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable only to its limited market, not the general consumer. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu Tue Jun 11 15:11:13 PDT 1996 Article: 42591 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!cmi.arizona.edu!dmittleman From: dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 10 Jun 1996 21:45 MST Organization: University of Arizona (BPA) Lines: 91 Distribution: world Message-ID: <10JUN199621453567@cmi.arizona.edu> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42591 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22377 alt.conspiracy:57670 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319850 alt.politics.radical-left:97165 alt.politics.perot:48699 alt.politics.usa.republican:214017 In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes... >In <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu >(Danny) writes: >> >> And I keep asking you something akin to, "why did you buy those shoes >> when there were other ones next to it on the rack which didn't have the >> overcharge attached?" You haven't answered me. >> >> And Ken keeps asking, "what overcharge? The increased market demand >> more than makes up for the extra charge. Can you demonstrate it really >> costs you more?" > > a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those >rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries. Why? If the salary, as passed on to the consumer, is a barrier then consumers will stop buying the product and the product managers will realize this and stop paying for kosher certification. But as the cost of kosher certification is a small fraction of a penny per product unit in most cases, most every consumer (who doesn't care about the certification) doesn't notice and doesn't care about it. The consumers keep on purchasing the product as it is not a barrier to them. It is simple economics. Have you taken an economics class? Oh, and it wasn't $5,000 a day. It was $10,000 for certification at this one company, and that 10k paid for two days onsite work plus all of the beforehand and afterwards administrative and overhead work. Did you understand something different from Steve's explanation? > b. What "increased market demand"? I think it's been conclusively >demonstrated that those who follow kosher dietary laws are an EXTREME >minority of consumers. > If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer >population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws >constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a >small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified >kosher." The percentage of the population that is Jewish and keeps kosher is extremely small. 1% might be a reasonable estimate for them. As someone pointed out though, kosher certification is meaningful to many others as well. It may be meaningful to Jews who don't keep kosher. It may be meaningful to Muslims who use it to ensure there is no pork in the product. It may be meaningful to non-Jews who perceive a quality threshold for kosher certified products (whether this quality threshold is real or not.) When all this is added up, well over 1% of the population could care about the certification. Now, as most products complete in the market for share, if one product wants to differentiate itself from the competition with kosher certification, it could mean a large percentage increase in sales. Let me give you a hypothetical example to show you what I mean. I am making up all of these numbers, but I hope that it helps you to see my point. Lets say you start a potato chip company. There might be a dozen other potato chip companies out there sharing the market. On average they each have 8% of the market or so. As you start up as the 13th company, you advertise a lot and enter with about a 4% share of the market. Now you notice that only a few other companies bother with kosher certification. You figure that while only a couple percent of the market care about it (lets say 2% in your city) that if you can get half of them to buy your chips because of kosher certification you can increase your market share from 4% to 5% or so. That would be a 25% increase in share for you. To increase your share by 25%, you would be willing to lay out significant dollars. Not all marketing decisions will have numbers exactly like this, but as you can see - in a competitive market where only some companies bother with kosher certification, it can have a big percentage difference on the amount of product sold. If fixed cost remain stable - other than the cost of certification - this increase market share can contribute heavily toward profit. Even if the Jewish population is quite small. > If this small-minority-of-a-small-minority of consumers was forced to >subsidize the certifying rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries alone, there'd >no doubt immediately be a huge population of "ex" kosher-following >Jewish consumers. Probably. But some free market company would quickly come along and figure out that by amortizing the cost among all of its customers it could grab up this extra market share and make more profit. Are you in favor or opposed to free enterprise such as this? daniel david mittleman =========================================================================== Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!" From t08o@unb.ca Tue Jun 11 15:11:16 PDT 1996 Article: 42601 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!usenet From: Keith Morrison Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 19:38:38 -0300 Organization: University of New Brunswick Lines: 12 Message-ID: <31BCA3EE.340D@unb.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: io.sun.csd.unb.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4c) Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42601 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22383 alt.conspiracy:57683 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319866 alt.politics.radical-left:97169 alt.politics.perot:48700 alt.politics.usa.republican:214039 Henry "full of hot" Ayre wrote: > > Americans are, after > all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will > believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. Or, it appears, if someone makes any outlandish statement on Usenet. -- Keith Morrison t08o@unb.ca From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 15:11:17 PDT 1996 Article: 42605 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 10 Jun 1996 18:13:26 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 53 Message-ID: <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca13-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10 11:13:26 AM PDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42605 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22385 alt.conspiracy:57687 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319872 alt.politics.radical-left:97174 alt.politics.perot:48701 alt.politics.usa.republican:214046 In <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) writes: > >In article <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes... >> >> Look, the REASON I said it's "totally irrelevant" is that it's like >>saying to someone who you've just overcharged for something, "You paid >>too much for your house, so why are you quibbling with me for >>overcharging you for this pair of shoes?" > > And I keep asking you something akin to, "why did you buy those shoes > when there were other ones next to it on the rack which didn't have the > overcharge attached?" You haven't answered me. > > And Ken keeps asking, "what overcharge? The increased market demand > more than makes up for the extra charge. Can you demonstrate it really > costs you more?" a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries. b. What "increased market demand"? I think it's been conclusively demonstrated that those who follow kosher dietary laws are an EXTREME minority of consumers. If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified kosher." If this small-minority-of-a-small-minority of consumers was forced to subsidize the certifying rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries alone, there'd no doubt immediately be a huge population of "ex" kosher-following Jewish consumers. And you haven't answered him. > > Yes, the shoes are a good analogy. > The shoes would be an even BETTER analogy if the surcharge placed on them was a result of demands by a tiny religious minority of a tiny racial/religious minority to which over 99% of shoe buyers do not belong. > daniel david mittleman >====================================================================== ==== > Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!" From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 16:36:46 PDT 1996 Article: 22389 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:34:37 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 34 Message-ID: <4pks9t$h9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42611 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22389 alt.conspiracy:57697 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319900 alt.politics.radical-left:97195 alt.politics.perot:48705 alt.politics.usa.republican:214084 In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: > a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those >rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries. You have yet to demonstrate that this is a salary, as opposed to a fee for service, paid to an organization. Not that it matters - it is already clear that the cost is so negligible as to be nearly impossible to quantify. > If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer >population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws >constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a >small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified >kosher." And the Seventh Day Adventists? The Moslem community? The market has been estimated at 6.5 million - large enough by far to justify the cost. You may wish to consider economy of scale - some you continue to ignore. (Perhaps that is why you won't answer those persistant questions about "what price increase?") See URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 16:36:47 PDT 1996 Article: 22391 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:38:00 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 207 Message-ID: <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42615 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22391 alt.conspiracy:57699 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319906 alt.politics.radical-left:97200 alt.politics.perot:48706 alt.politics.usa.republican:214091 In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart wrote: >O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher >counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1 Thank you, Mr. Lockhart. I'll get a copy faxed to me, and get back to you. Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate Last-Modified: 1996/06/10 ADL Special Edition, January 1991 A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith -- Civil Rights Division Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate ---------------------------- The "Kosher Tax" Hoax "The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in America." The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax" to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews. Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the American population desires such markings, and that even the meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." The Facts Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for _kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the respective organizations and found to be in compliance with Jewish dietary law. The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. A May 18, 1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5 millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the market for them. Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods 'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant, >from a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection service, certifying foods and related products to be in compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell them, not to "the Jews."* The Lies The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters. The pamphlet begins: "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances, polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and pass the cost on to the consumer." The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party (NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party. The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet, "The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. "The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990 which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols May Be Changed to Hide Swindle." "Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last" asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION!" Bigotry Over a Beer Label With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of the company. Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United States for many years. Following along the lines of many other anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of banks, the media, and the government. In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses (numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to promote their political power to the point where this country has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)." Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and efforts connected with the kosher certification and that rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a Swastika for Nordics/Odinists." Beating the "Tax" Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April 25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states: "God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation) are being carefully herded closer and closer to International totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing." "You Don't Have to be Jewish..." Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990), "Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means higher quality food." Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g. taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism. *In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection, processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable only to its limited market, not the general consumer. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 16:36:49 PDT 1996 Article: 22393 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 132 Message-ID: <4pku3c$hj6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42622 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22393 alt.conspiracy:57704 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319914 alt.politics.radical-left:97206 alt.politics.perot:48708 alt.politics.usa.republican:214100 can.politics:51211 In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart wrote: >McOyVay: >Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food >certification. >ECDL: >O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher >counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1 As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to be one of them, as others have already pointed out. >McVay: >Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your >claim. > >ECDL: >The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several >thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the >agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 >Page D1 You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man, for a single day's work. Thank you. >McVay: >Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews. > >ECDL: >McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing >the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay. If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says a great deal about you, and your "organization." Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole. For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family" spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or "exageration" is more than a little revealing. >Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians >demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a >symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the >population? The cry would be loud and clear. Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets? >Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced' >to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate >America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being >some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well >to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million _new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh? Why is that, Mr. Lockhart? [non-secular material] >McVay: >Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified >product. Document your claim. >ECDL: >Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is >that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little >symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if >any know about 'Kosher' food Tax Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher. Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no such "tax" exists. >And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX. Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which increased their market share, and cost them money, which they passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon, Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time. >1) Taxation: >'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by >a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for >fiscal purposes....' >Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23 >Page 8418 Government? >According to the definition, although the money collected is not for >the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory >contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax. In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong, so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've got there, Mr. Lockhart. Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products, Mr. Lockhart. >We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being >funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told >that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and >non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is >given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency. >So who benefits again? Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8 million people, Mr. Lockhart. Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:09:07 PDT 1996 Article: 42611 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:34:37 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 34 Message-ID: <4pks9t$h9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42611 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22389 alt.conspiracy:57697 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319900 alt.politics.radical-left:97195 alt.politics.perot:48705 alt.politics.usa.republican:214084 In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: > a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those >rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries. You have yet to demonstrate that this is a salary, as opposed to a fee for service, paid to an organization. Not that it matters - it is already clear that the cost is so negligible as to be nearly impossible to quantify. > If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer >population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws >constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a >small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified >kosher." And the Seventh Day Adventists? The Moslem community? The market has been estimated at 6.5 million - large enough by far to justify the cost. You may wish to consider economy of scale - some you continue to ignore. (Perhaps that is why you won't answer those persistant questions about "what price increase?") See URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:09:08 PDT 1996 Article: 42615 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:38:00 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 207 Message-ID: <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42615 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22391 alt.conspiracy:57699 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319906 alt.politics.radical-left:97200 alt.politics.perot:48706 alt.politics.usa.republican:214091 In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart wrote: >O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher >counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1 Thank you, Mr. Lockhart. I'll get a copy faxed to me, and get back to you. Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate Last-Modified: 1996/06/10 ADL Special Edition, January 1991 A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith -- Civil Rights Division Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate ---------------------------- The "Kosher Tax" Hoax "The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in America." The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax" to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews. Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the American population desires such markings, and that even the meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." The Facts Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for _kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the respective organizations and found to be in compliance with Jewish dietary law. The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. A May 18, 1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5 millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the market for them. Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods 'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant, >from a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection service, certifying foods and related products to be in compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell them, not to "the Jews."* The Lies The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters. The pamphlet begins: "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances, polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and pass the cost on to the consumer." The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party (NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party. The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet, "The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. "The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990 which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols May Be Changed to Hide Swindle." "Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last" asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION!" Bigotry Over a Beer Label With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of the company. Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United States for many years. Following along the lines of many other anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of banks, the media, and the government. In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses (numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to promote their political power to the point where this country has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)." Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and efforts connected with the kosher certification and that rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a Swastika for Nordics/Odinists." Beating the "Tax" Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April 25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states: "God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation) are being carefully herded closer and closer to International totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing." "You Don't Have to be Jewish..." Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990), "Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means higher quality food." Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g. taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism. *In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection, processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable only to its limited market, not the general consumer. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:09:09 PDT 1996 Article: 42622 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 132 Message-ID: <4pku3c$hj6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42622 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22393 alt.conspiracy:57704 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319914 alt.politics.radical-left:97206 alt.politics.perot:48708 alt.politics.usa.republican:214100 can.politics:51211 In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart wrote: >McOyVay: >Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food >certification. >ECDL: >O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher >counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1 As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to be one of them, as others have already pointed out. >McVay: >Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your >claim. > >ECDL: >The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several >thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the >agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 >Page D1 You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man, for a single day's work. Thank you. >McVay: >Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews. > >ECDL: >McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing >the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay. If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says a great deal about you, and your "organization." Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole. For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family" spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or "exageration" is more than a little revealing. >Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians >demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a >symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the >population? The cry would be loud and clear. Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets? >Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced' >to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate >America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being >some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well >to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million _new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh? Why is that, Mr. Lockhart? [non-secular material] >McVay: >Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified >product. Document your claim. >ECDL: >Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is >that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little >symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if >any know about 'Kosher' food Tax Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher. Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no such "tax" exists. >And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX. Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which increased their market share, and cost them money, which they passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon, Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time. >1) Taxation: >'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by >a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for >fiscal purposes....' >Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23 >Page 8418 Government? >According to the definition, although the money collected is not for >the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory >contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax. In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong, so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've got there, Mr. Lockhart. Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products, Mr. Lockhart. >We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being >funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told >that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and >non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is >given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency. >So who benefits again? Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8 million people, Mr. Lockhart. Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:24:07 PDT 1996 Article: 57697 of alt.conspiracy Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:34:37 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 34 Message-ID: <4pks9t$h9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42611 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22389 alt.conspiracy:57697 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319900 alt.politics.radical-left:97195 alt.politics.perot:48705 alt.politics.usa.republican:214084 In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: > a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those >rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries. You have yet to demonstrate that this is a salary, as opposed to a fee for service, paid to an organization. Not that it matters - it is already clear that the cost is so negligible as to be nearly impossible to quantify. > If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer >population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws >constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a >small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified >kosher." And the Seventh Day Adventists? The Moslem community? The market has been estimated at 6.5 million - large enough by far to justify the cost. You may wish to consider economy of scale - some you continue to ignore. (Perhaps that is why you won't answer those persistant questions about "what price increase?") See URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:24:08 PDT 1996 Article: 57699 of alt.conspiracy Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:38:00 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 207 Message-ID: <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42615 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22391 alt.conspiracy:57699 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319906 alt.politics.radical-left:97200 alt.politics.perot:48706 alt.politics.usa.republican:214091 In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart wrote: >O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher >counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1 Thank you, Mr. Lockhart. I'll get a copy faxed to me, and get back to you. Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate Last-Modified: 1996/06/10 ADL Special Edition, January 1991 A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith -- Civil Rights Division Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate ---------------------------- The "Kosher Tax" Hoax "The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in America." The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax" to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews. Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the American population desires such markings, and that even the meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." The Facts Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for _kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the respective organizations and found to be in compliance with Jewish dietary law. The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. A May 18, 1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5 millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the market for them. Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods 'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant, >from a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection service, certifying foods and related products to be in compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell them, not to "the Jews."* The Lies The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters. The pamphlet begins: "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances, polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and pass the cost on to the consumer." The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party (NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party. The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet, "The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. "The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990 which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols May Be Changed to Hide Swindle." "Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last" asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION!" Bigotry Over a Beer Label With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of the company. Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United States for many years. Following along the lines of many other anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of banks, the media, and the government. In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses (numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to promote their political power to the point where this country has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)." Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and efforts connected with the kosher certification and that rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a Swastika for Nordics/Odinists." Beating the "Tax" Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April 25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states: "God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation) are being carefully herded closer and closer to International totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing." "You Don't Have to be Jewish..." Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990), "Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means higher quality food." Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g. taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism. *In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection, processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable only to its limited market, not the general consumer. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:24:10 PDT 1996 Article: 57704 of alt.conspiracy Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 132 Message-ID: <4pku3c$hj6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42622 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22393 alt.conspiracy:57704 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319914 alt.politics.radical-left:97206 alt.politics.perot:48708 alt.politics.usa.republican:214100 can.politics:51211 In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart wrote: >McOyVay: >Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food >certification. >ECDL: >O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher >counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1 As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to be one of them, as others have already pointed out. >McVay: >Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your >claim. > >ECDL: >The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several >thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the >agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 >Page D1 You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man, for a single day's work. Thank you. >McVay: >Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews. > >ECDL: >McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing >the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay. If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says a great deal about you, and your "organization." Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole. For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family" spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or "exageration" is more than a little revealing. >Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians >demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a >symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the >population? The cry would be loud and clear. Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets? >Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced' >to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate >America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being >some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well >to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million _new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh? Why is that, Mr. Lockhart? [non-secular material] >McVay: >Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified >product. Document your claim. >ECDL: >Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is >that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little >symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if >any know about 'Kosher' food Tax Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher. Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no such "tax" exists. >And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX. Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which increased their market share, and cost them money, which they passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon, Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time. >1) Taxation: >'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by >a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for >fiscal purposes....' >Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23 >Page 8418 Government? >According to the definition, although the money collected is not for >the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory >contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax. In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong, so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've got there, Mr. Lockhart. Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products, Mr. Lockhart. >We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being >funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told >that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and >non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is >given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency. >So who benefits again? Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8 million people, Mr. Lockhart. Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Tue Jun 11 17:39:38 PDT 1996 Article: 51211 of can.politics Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 132 Message-ID: <4pku3c$hj6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42622 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22393 alt.conspiracy:57704 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319914 alt.politics.radical-left:97206 alt.politics.perot:48708 alt.politics.usa.republican:214100 can.politics:51211 In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart wrote: >McOyVay: >Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food >certification. >ECDL: >O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher >counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1 As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to be one of them, as others have already pointed out. >McVay: >Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your >claim. > >ECDL: >The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several >thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the >agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 >Page D1 You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man, for a single day's work. Thank you. >McVay: >Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews. > >ECDL: >McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing >the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay. If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says a great deal about you, and your "organization." Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole. For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family" spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or "exageration" is more than a little revealing. >Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians >demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a >symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the >population? The cry would be loud and clear. Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets? >Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced' >to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate >America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being >some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well >to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million _new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh? Why is that, Mr. Lockhart? [non-secular material] >McVay: >Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified >product. Document your claim. >ECDL: >Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is >that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little >symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if >any know about 'Kosher' food Tax Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher. Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no such "tax" exists. >And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX. Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which increased their market share, and cost them money, which they passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon, Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time. >1) Taxation: >'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by >a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for >fiscal purposes....' >Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23 >Page 8418 Government? >According to the definition, although the money collected is not for >the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory >contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax. In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong, so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've got there, Mr. Lockhart. Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products, Mr. Lockhart. >We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being >funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told >that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and >non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is >given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency. >So who benefits again? Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8 million people, Mr. Lockhart. Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From einstein@mars.superlink.net Wed Jun 12 07:52:38 PDT 1996 Article: 57944 of alt.conspiracy Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!earth.superlink.net!news From: Einstein Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:24:45 -0500 Organization: Einstein's Den Lines: 56 Message-ID: <31BD658D.414C5D9D@mars.superlink.net> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: einstein.superlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 1.2.8 i586) Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42794 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22452 alt.conspiracy:57944 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320331 alt.politics.radical-left:97392 alt.politics.perot:48760 alt.politics.usa.republican:214605 I think boycotting Kosher food is a good idea ..... I mean why should we pay more for food ..... If somebody wants Kosher food then it is their responsibility to pay the extra costs for that food ..... Boycott Kosher food! D. Braun wrote: > > On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote: > > > No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note Dave's > > neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' > > exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate, eternal, > > and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth at > > all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware of > > that fact for, well, just ages. > > Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America, and > an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you put > it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first hand > knowledge of the kosher certification. He exhaustively debunked Charles' > wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation boiled > down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many costs a > firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, and > second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust of a > family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense of > the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time commercials > for Nilla Wafers!! Where is the advertising plot? Could it be a "plot" by > Nabisco to increase sales? Should all advertising be outlawed because it > sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an > antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact? > > > The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not in > > France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after > > all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will > > believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV. > > > > But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that the > > kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer will > > NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? > > > > Wake up America! H. Ayre. > > And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and out. > > Dave Braun -- "The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are permitted to remain children all our lives." -- Albert Einstein mailto:einstein@mars.superlink.net http://mars.superlink.net/einstein From moo@midtown.net Wed Jun 12 07:52:40 PDT 1996 Article: 57950 of alt.conspiracy Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!ulysses.midtown.net!sl27.midtown.net!user From: moo@midtown.net (Bryan Cowan) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam Date: 12 Jun 1996 04:54:40 GMT Organization: Midtown Computer Services Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: sl27.midtown.net Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42800 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22455 alt.conspiracy:57950 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320339 alt.politics.radical-left:97395 alt.politics.perot:48764 alt.politics.usa.republican:214616 In article <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: (snip) > The "Kosher Tax" Hoax > > "The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in > America." (snip) > The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule > fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible > in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. A May 18, > 1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to > General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5 > millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a > representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item > cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such > labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the > market for them. I remember buying a kosher chocolate bar in San Francisco that was the same price as a non kosher chocolate bar of the same size, despite the fact that the non kosher bar was made in America and the kosher bar was imported from Israel. Oh, and there was no noticeable taste difference either. (snip) > "You Don't Have to be Jewish..." > > Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a > tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and > others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher > food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990), > "Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many > as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the > supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and > Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the > Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to > be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means > higher quality food." I am a Gentile/Goy who is seriously thinking of adopting a kosher diet. I believe that it will be healthier, and less fattening (especially important since I'm 80 pounds overweight right now). (snip) PS. If anybody knows of any exclusively Jewish/kosher stores in the Sacramento area email me. From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 07:52:41 PDT 1996 Article: 57958 of alt.conspiracy Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam Date: 12 Jun 1996 02:56:44 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 159 Message-ID: <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pi09q$dsl@scoop.eco.twg.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca13-06.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 11 9:56:44 PM CDT 1996 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:214639 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320362 alt.conspiracy:57958 alt.revisionism:42806 alt.politics.perot:48768 alt.politics.radical-left:97406 In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes: > >Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate >Last-Modified: 1996/06/10 > >ADL Special Edition, January 1991 >A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai >B'rith -- Civil Rights Division > >Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate >---------------------------- > >The "Kosher Tax" Hoax > >"The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in >America." > >The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher >certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost >consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax" >to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda >used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting >conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews. Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How broad-minded of you to write that! >Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on >foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits >Jewish organizations Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher certification" extortion racket. >while only a small segment of the >American population desires such markings, Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population. Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of the American population demands such markings" > and that even the >meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product either way and how much it costs? With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service information, such as, "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL AUTHORITIES." >The Facts > >Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for >_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a >standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an "anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion. >Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox >Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that >products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production >processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the >respective organizations and found to be in compliance with >Jewish dietary law. But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY tiny minority. >The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule >fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible >in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal! That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget. [deletia] >"Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is >superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with >improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever >scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million >dollar business today!" > Another article in "The Truth At Last" >asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish >organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will >buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this >Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE >POPULATION!" > >Bigotry Over a Beer Label > >With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing >Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans >Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American >National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon >himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of >the company . . . [deletia] > . . . In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as >someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce >to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate >use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to >terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses >(numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to >promote their political power to the point where this country >has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)." > >Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher >symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and >efforts connected with the kosher certification and that >rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate. >In a >post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the >following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for >Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," . . . Great idea! Plus, the company should PAY every Protestant and Catholic sect for the "privilege" of being able to include crosses and crucifixes on the labels of its products, just as Jewish organizations receive literally $millions$ (perhaps billions, cumulatively) yearly for granting companies the "privilege" of calling their products "kosher." [deletia] From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:21:26 PDT 1996 Article: 97195 of alt.politics.radical-left Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:34:37 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 34 Message-ID: <4pks9t$h9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42611 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22389 alt.conspiracy:57697 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319900 alt.politics.radical-left:97195 alt.politics.perot:48705 alt.politics.usa.republican:214084 In article <4phok6$p15@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: > a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those >rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries. You have yet to demonstrate that this is a salary, as opposed to a fee for service, paid to an organization. Not that it matters - it is already clear that the cost is so negligible as to be nearly impossible to quantify. > If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer >population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws >constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a >small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified >kosher." And the Seventh Day Adventists? The Moslem community? The market has been estimated at 6.5 million - large enough by far to justify the cost. You may wish to consider economy of scale - some you continue to ignore. (Perhaps that is why you won't answer those persistant questions about "what price increase?") See URL: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:21:28 PDT 1996 Article: 97200 of alt.politics.radical-left Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Recipe for Hatred: "Kosher Tax" Scam Date: 11 Jun 1996 15:38:00 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 207 Message-ID: <4pksg8$ha7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42615 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22391 alt.conspiracy:57699 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319906 alt.politics.radical-left:97200 alt.politics.perot:48706 alt.politics.usa.republican:214091 In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart wrote: >O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher >counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1 Thank you, Mr. Lockhart. I'll get a copy faxed to me, and get back to you. Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate Last-Modified: 1996/06/10 ADL Special Edition, January 1991 A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith -- Civil Rights Division Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate ---------------------------- The "Kosher Tax" Hoax "The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in America." The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax" to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews. Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits Jewish organizations while only a small segment of the American population desires such markings, and that even the meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." The Facts Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for _kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the respective organizations and found to be in compliance with Jewish dietary law. The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. A May 18, 1975 New York _Times_ article reported that the cost to General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5 millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the market for them. Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted in the Washington _Post_, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods 'increased substantially.'" Visits to the Entenmann's plant, >from a "mashgiach," or kashruth inspector, are provided by the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection service, certifying foods and related products to be in compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell them, not to "the Jews."* The Lies The most active right wing extremist sources of the "kosher tax" hoax are various Ku Klux Klan groups and the National States Rights Party, based in Marietta, GA. The Invisible Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (now based in North Carolina), through its Empire Publishing, offers a pamphlet titled "The Kosher Tax Swindle" to its members and supporters. The pamphlet begins: "American families are paying tribute to Jews every time they sit down at the table to eat and in many instances, polish their shoes, silver or wrap the leftover Thanksgiving turkey. Why? Because Jews have discovered a way to coerce business to pay taxes directly to Jewish organizations and pass the cost on to the consumer." The racist and anti-Semitic National States Rights Party (NSRP), founded in 1958, became a focal point of violent opposition to civil rights struggle in the South and has functioned as both a propaganda mill and a political party. The party's founder, Edward Fields, has served as its National Secretary, as well as the editor of the party's hate sheet, "The Truth At Last" (formerly "The Thunderbolt"). Fields was also the Grand Dragon of the now-defunct New Order, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. "The Truth At Last" published a special issue in June 1990 which dealt only with kosher symbols. Articles appeared in this edition with such titles as: "Six States Make Rabbis Kosher Policeman [sic]," "Secret Kosher Tax Boosts Food Prices," "How Kosher Blackmail Works," and "Kosher Tax Symbols May Be Changed to Hide Swindle." "Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million dollar business today!" Another article in "The Truth At Last" asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION!" Bigotry Over a Beer Label With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of the company. Schmidt, who was a member of the Hitler Youth and claims to have served in the Waffen-SS during World War II, has been a leading proponent of Holocaust "revisionism" in the United States for many years. Following along the lines of many other anti-Semites, Schmidt promotes the myth of "Jewish control" of banks, the media, and the government. In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses (numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to promote their political power to the point where this country has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)." Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and efforts connected with the kosher certification and that rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." In a post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," and "a Swastika for Nordics/Odinists." Beating the "Tax" Some extremists call for a boycott of foods and companies that succumb to the "kosher conspiracy." For example, in an April 25, 1990 newsletter published by the Populist Party, a far-right political group, chairperson Monica Rorhig states: "God knows we are taxed enough already without volunteering to tithe to a foreign country and a foreign philosophy. It's a kick to walk out of a grocery store knowing you have successfully evaded this illegal tax." Ms. Rorhig explains that through such means as this alleged tax, "we (as a nation) are being carefully herded closer and closer to International totalitarian tyranny." Pamphlets, in groups of 5-100, are offered through this newsletter for Populist Party members to circulate and spread the warning against this "unfair taxing." "You Don't Have to be Jewish..." Contrary to the anti-Semitic charge that kosher labeling is a tightly guarded "Jewish secret" kept from Christians and others, it is not only Jews who prefer to purchase kosher food. According to the Washington _Post_ (Sept. 27, 1990), "Some kosher marketing officials estimate there may be as many as six million Americans who seek out Kosher foods in the supermarket. Of these only 1.5 million are Jewish. Moslems and Seventh Day Adventists also adhere to certain aspects of the Jewish dietary laws, but the bulk of Kosher shoppers appear to be consumers who believe the Kosher certification...means higher quality food." Yet whether or not they choose to purchase kosher food products, most Americans will reject the bigotry inherent in the "Kosher Tax" propaganda, recognizing it as another effort by extremists to exploit legitimate public concerns (e.g. taxes, the economy, etc.) as vehicles for anti-Semitism. *In the separate case of kosher meat and poultry purchased at kosher butcher shops (as distinguished from the broad general range of mass-market consumer goods certified kosher), the consumer does pay a higher price. This cost is due to the more intensive, continuous rabbinical supervision required for the exacting technicalities of kosher slaughter and inspection, processing, storage and quality of kosher meat -- an inescapable necessity for this particular product, applicable only to its limited market, not the general consumer. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:21:30 PDT 1996 Article: 97206 of alt.politics.radical-left Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Subject: "Kosher Tax" Lie, the Klan, and Joe Lockhart Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics Date: 11 Jun 1996 16:05:16 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 132 Message-ID: <4pku3c$hj6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:42622 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22393 alt.conspiracy:57704 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:319914 alt.politics.radical-left:97206 alt.politics.perot:48708 alt.politics.usa.republican:214100 can.politics:51211 In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>, Joe Lockhart wrote: >McOyVay: >Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food >certification. >ECDL: >O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher >counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1 As the report "Recipe for Hate" points out, there are cases where this is true. The mass market, however isn't likely to be one of them, as others have already pointed out. >McVay: >Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your >claim. > >ECDL: >The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several >thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the >agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 >Page D1 You did not document the claim - in fact, you made my point. A fee for service is paid - not a salary, paid to a single man, for a single day's work. Thank you. >McVay: >Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews. > >ECDL: >McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing >the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay. If, Mr. Lockhart, you wish to consider questions about outright lies "hyperbole," I should thank you - it says a great deal about you, and your "organization." Asking that specious claims be documented is not hyperbole. For instance, joebuck made the claim that "Canadian economists estimate" that a "typical ... Canadian family" spends $300 a year because of kosher certification. I, and many others, have asked him to document that claim. He has not, and I believe he cannot, do that, because I do not believe it is true. That you consider that "excess" or "exageration" is more than a little revealing. >Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians >demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a >symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the >population? The cry would be loud and clear. Who is demanding? Where is the evidence that anyone is demanding? Why are there non-kosher foods in markets? >Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced' >to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate >America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being >some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well >to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical suicide. I see - so nothing that any CEO or manager says to the effect that economy of scale - i.e. adding a potential 6-8 million _new_ customers - offsets the already miniscule cost means a thing to you, eh? The numbers don't mean a thing, eh? Why is that, Mr. Lockhart? [non-secular material] >McVay: >Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified >product. Document your claim. >ECDL: >Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is >that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little >symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if >any know about 'Kosher' food Tax Seventh Day Adventists also buy kosher. Moslems buy kosher. Where's the scam? Most people don't know about this because no such "tax" exists. >And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX. Is it? Then the computer work I did for my clients, which increased their market share, and cost them money, which they passed on to you, that was a tax as well? Do you eat salmon, Mr. Lockhart? If so, perhaps you've paid the "McVay tax" every time. >1) Taxation: >'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by >a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for >fiscal purposes....' >Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23 >Page 8418 Government? >According to the definition, although the money collected is not for >the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory >contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax. In other words, even your own definition proves you are wrong, so you chose to redefine the definition. Nice system you've got there, Mr. Lockhart. Nothing is compulsory. You do not have to buy kosher products, Mr. Lockhart. >We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being >funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people. You are told >that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and >non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is >given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency. >So who benefits again? Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, Orthodox Jews, others who believe certified food is healthier... i.e. a market of 6-8 million people, Mr. Lockhart. Same old Klan propaganda, new name. Yawn. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:22:09 PDT 1996 Article: 97439 of alt.politics.radical-left Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.general Subject: JOEBUGS Bogus "Canadian Economists" ["Kosher Tax"] Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:01:19 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 65 Message-ID: <4pmm3v$qho@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:22459 alt.conspiracy:57971 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320396 alt.politics.radical-left:97439 alt.politics.perot:48773 alt.politics.usa.republican:214679 can.general:79920 In article <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: >In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken >McVay OBC) writes: >>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000 >>per day as you claim. > You're not serious? Yes, I am. > ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e. from >Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread. There, >it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!) No, not fact. See below. > Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their >twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00 >divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated? Sorry, but I don't think you are reading him correctly. The fee is paid to an organization, for service rendered, not to any rabbi - i.e. it is not a salary. That aside, you have yet to show that this payment (which I grant - I have no reason to disbelieve the fee) increases the product cost beyond miniscule levels - millionths of a cent. >>You have also yet to back up your specious claim about what >>"Canadian economists" have said. > True enough, insofar as I haven't provided specific citations. > Since you're apparently an expatriot-American living in Canada, why >don't you do YOURSELF a favor -- seeing how you, better than I -- are >likely have much better access to back issues of the Alberta, Canada >publication in which these economists were quoted -- and look it up? Which Alberta publications might those be? You made the claim, and it is your responsibility to back it up with facts. I believe that claim is bullshit - I don't think "Canadian economists" have made any such studies, or any such statement. >>Perhaps you should go the library, and educate yourself, >>rather than repeating these untruths. > You're in Canada, you'd have much better access to the references. >Got a library card? You have yet to provide references for this claim. There is nothing to look up. You, however, are the one who made a claim that he cannot now back up with documented evidence - why must others do the homework you apparently are reluctant or unwilling to do? -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:22:11 PDT 1996 Article: 97447 of alt.politics.radical-left Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,can.general Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,can.general Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:18:58 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 159 Message-ID: <4pmn52$qkm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:214693 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320409 alt.conspiracy:57981 alt.revisionism:42824 alt.politics.perot:48775 alt.politics.radical-left:97447 can.general:79921 In article <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: >In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken >McVay OBC) writes: [citing http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html] > Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day >salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How >broad-minded of you to write that! You have yet to show that "rabbis are paid $5,000 a day." I, and others, have pointed out that you are mis-quoting your source, but you fail to change your tune. This implies that either you cannot read (I reject that - you clearly can read), or you cannot understand what you do read (I reject that, too, as I believe you _can_ understand what you read.) That only leaves one conclusion: You are deliberately lying about this non-existent "$5000 per rabbi" payment in order to create an impression. Why would you want to do that? Perhaps because you are an antisemite? Could that be it? Why do you neglect to link the fee for service (for that, and not a "salary" for two rabbis, is what it is) to the production levels of the product? Could it be because you do not wish people to know that the cost per product cost is so small as to be near-non-existent? Why do you neglect to mention competing, non-kosher, product? >>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on >>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits >>Jewish organizations > Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in >another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several >thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher >certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to >having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a >year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish >organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher >certification" extortion racket. Extortion racket? You have yet to demonstrate, with all your hot air, that anyone has been forced to certify their products as kosher. You have, quite deliberately, ignored - repeatedly ignored - evidence that kosher certification led to increased market penetration, reduced cost, and higher profits. I.e. something a company like Nabisco, or Coors, would do quite willingly to attract the estimated 6-8 MILLION extra customers that would result. >>while only a small segment of the >>American population desires such markings, > Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population. >Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So >it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of >the American population demands such markings" You repeatedly ignore the Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, and Just Plain Folks who keep kosher, or simply look for and purchase kosher foods - 6 to 8 MILLION of them. Why is that? Why do you continually try to convey the impression that none but a handful of Jews might benefit? I think that is quite dishonest of you. >> and that even the >>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." > How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet >attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly >what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product >either way and how much it costs? > With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the >inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that >name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service >information, such as, > "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS > PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE > WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE > VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION > OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION > FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO > WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR > YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL > AUTHORITIES." How about "WARNING: THE PRICE PAID FOR THIS PRODUCT WAS PRECISELY THE SAME PRICE AS THE NON-CERTIFIED PRODUCT NEXT TO IT ON THE SHELF." Would that do it for you? Who forces you to buy kosher? How much food in your supermarket is kosher, and how much is not? >>The Facts >>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for >>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a >>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. > Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an >"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion. You have yet to demonstrate that it is mandatory. You have not even tried, other than making totally unsupported assertions. > But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM >ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers >to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY >tiny minority. See above - look for "6 to 8 MILLION" and ask someone about "economy of scale." >>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule >>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible >>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. > That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at >critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to >Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal! >That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget. How much does the United States _give_ to Israel? How much does the United States _give_ to Egypt? Explain that. [snip] >>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher >>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and >>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that >>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." > Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today >that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for >its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate. The issue is not the cost to the producer, but the cost to the consumer. Does Coors beer cost more than other competing, major American brands? Somehow I doubt it. If not, why not? What would we do without the Klan to remind us as to just how stupid human beings can get. Shedding the white sheet image doesn't seem to have changed the stupidity of the message any. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 10:37:48 PDT 1996 Article: 42824 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,can.general Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,can.general Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:18:58 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 159 Message-ID: <4pmn52$qkm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:214693 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320409 alt.conspiracy:57981 alt.revisionism:42824 alt.politics.perot:48775 alt.politics.radical-left:97447 can.general:79921 In article <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: >In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken >McVay OBC) writes: [citing http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html] > Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day >salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How >broad-minded of you to write that! You have yet to show that "rabbis are paid $5,000 a day." I, and others, have pointed out that you are mis-quoting your source, but you fail to change your tune. This implies that either you cannot read (I reject that - you clearly can read), or you cannot understand what you do read (I reject that, too, as I believe you _can_ understand what you read.) That only leaves one conclusion: You are deliberately lying about this non-existent "$5000 per rabbi" payment in order to create an impression. Why would you want to do that? Perhaps because you are an antisemite? Could that be it? Why do you neglect to link the fee for service (for that, and not a "salary" for two rabbis, is what it is) to the production levels of the product? Could it be because you do not wish people to know that the cost per product cost is so small as to be near-non-existent? Why do you neglect to mention competing, non-kosher, product? >>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on >>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits >>Jewish organizations > Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in >another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several >thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher >certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to >having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a >year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish >organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher >certification" extortion racket. Extortion racket? You have yet to demonstrate, with all your hot air, that anyone has been forced to certify their products as kosher. You have, quite deliberately, ignored - repeatedly ignored - evidence that kosher certification led to increased market penetration, reduced cost, and higher profits. I.e. something a company like Nabisco, or Coors, would do quite willingly to attract the estimated 6-8 MILLION extra customers that would result. >>while only a small segment of the >>American population desires such markings, > Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population. >Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So >it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of >the American population demands such markings" You repeatedly ignore the Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, and Just Plain Folks who keep kosher, or simply look for and purchase kosher foods - 6 to 8 MILLION of them. Why is that? Why do you continually try to convey the impression that none but a handful of Jews might benefit? I think that is quite dishonest of you. >> and that even the >>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." > How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet >attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly >what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product >either way and how much it costs? > With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the >inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that >name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service >information, such as, > "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS > PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE > WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE > VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION > OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION > FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO > WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR > YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL > AUTHORITIES." How about "WARNING: THE PRICE PAID FOR THIS PRODUCT WAS PRECISELY THE SAME PRICE AS THE NON-CERTIFIED PRODUCT NEXT TO IT ON THE SHELF." Would that do it for you? Who forces you to buy kosher? How much food in your supermarket is kosher, and how much is not? >>The Facts >>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for >>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a >>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. > Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an >"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion. You have yet to demonstrate that it is mandatory. You have not even tried, other than making totally unsupported assertions. > But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM >ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers >to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY >tiny minority. See above - look for "6 to 8 MILLION" and ask someone about "economy of scale." >>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule >>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible >>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. > That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at >critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to >Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal! >That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget. How much does the United States _give_ to Israel? How much does the United States _give_ to Egypt? Explain that. [snip] >>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher >>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and >>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that >>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." > Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today >that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for >its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate. The issue is not the cost to the producer, but the cost to the consumer. Does Coors beer cost more than other competing, major American brands? Somehow I doubt it. If not, why not? What would we do without the Klan to remind us as to just how stupid human beings can get. Shedding the white sheet image doesn't seem to have changed the stupidity of the message any. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 11:13:29 PDT 1996 Article: 22459 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.general Subject: JOEBUGS Bogus "Canadian Economists" ["Kosher Tax"] Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:01:19 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 65 Message-ID: <4pmm3v$qho@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:22459 alt.conspiracy:57971 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320396 alt.politics.radical-left:97439 alt.politics.perot:48773 alt.politics.usa.republican:214679 can.general:79920 In article <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: >In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken >McVay OBC) writes: >>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000 >>per day as you claim. > You're not serious? Yes, I am. > ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e. from >Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread. There, >it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!) No, not fact. See below. > Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their >twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00 >divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated? Sorry, but I don't think you are reading him correctly. The fee is paid to an organization, for service rendered, not to any rabbi - i.e. it is not a salary. That aside, you have yet to show that this payment (which I grant - I have no reason to disbelieve the fee) increases the product cost beyond miniscule levels - millionths of a cent. >>You have also yet to back up your specious claim about what >>"Canadian economists" have said. > True enough, insofar as I haven't provided specific citations. > Since you're apparently an expatriot-American living in Canada, why >don't you do YOURSELF a favor -- seeing how you, better than I -- are >likely have much better access to back issues of the Alberta, Canada >publication in which these economists were quoted -- and look it up? Which Alberta publications might those be? You made the claim, and it is your responsibility to back it up with facts. I believe that claim is bullshit - I don't think "Canadian economists" have made any such studies, or any such statement. >>Perhaps you should go the library, and educate yourself, >>rather than repeating these untruths. > You're in Canada, you'd have much better access to the references. >Got a library card? You have yet to provide references for this claim. There is nothing to look up. You, however, are the one who made a claim that he cannot now back up with documented evidence - why must others do the homework you apparently are reluctant or unwilling to do? -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 11:22:37 PDT 1996 Article: 57981 of alt.conspiracy Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,can.general Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,can.general Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:18:58 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 159 Message-ID: <4pmn52$qkm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:214693 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320409 alt.conspiracy:57981 alt.revisionism:42824 alt.politics.perot:48775 alt.politics.radical-left:97447 can.general:79921 In article <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: >In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken >McVay OBC) writes: [citing http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html] > Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day >salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How >broad-minded of you to write that! You have yet to show that "rabbis are paid $5,000 a day." I, and others, have pointed out that you are mis-quoting your source, but you fail to change your tune. This implies that either you cannot read (I reject that - you clearly can read), or you cannot understand what you do read (I reject that, too, as I believe you _can_ understand what you read.) That only leaves one conclusion: You are deliberately lying about this non-existent "$5000 per rabbi" payment in order to create an impression. Why would you want to do that? Perhaps because you are an antisemite? Could that be it? Why do you neglect to link the fee for service (for that, and not a "salary" for two rabbis, is what it is) to the production levels of the product? Could it be because you do not wish people to know that the cost per product cost is so small as to be near-non-existent? Why do you neglect to mention competing, non-kosher, product? >>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on >>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits >>Jewish organizations > Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in >another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several >thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher >certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to >having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a >year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish >organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher >certification" extortion racket. Extortion racket? You have yet to demonstrate, with all your hot air, that anyone has been forced to certify their products as kosher. You have, quite deliberately, ignored - repeatedly ignored - evidence that kosher certification led to increased market penetration, reduced cost, and higher profits. I.e. something a company like Nabisco, or Coors, would do quite willingly to attract the estimated 6-8 MILLION extra customers that would result. >>while only a small segment of the >>American population desires such markings, > Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population. >Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So >it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of >the American population demands such markings" You repeatedly ignore the Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, and Just Plain Folks who keep kosher, or simply look for and purchase kosher foods - 6 to 8 MILLION of them. Why is that? Why do you continually try to convey the impression that none but a handful of Jews might benefit? I think that is quite dishonest of you. >> and that even the >>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." > How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet >attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly >what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product >either way and how much it costs? > With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the >inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that >name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service >information, such as, > "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS > PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE > WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE > VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION > OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION > FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO > WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR > YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL > AUTHORITIES." How about "WARNING: THE PRICE PAID FOR THIS PRODUCT WAS PRECISELY THE SAME PRICE AS THE NON-CERTIFIED PRODUCT NEXT TO IT ON THE SHELF." Would that do it for you? Who forces you to buy kosher? How much food in your supermarket is kosher, and how much is not? >>The Facts >>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for >>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a >>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. > Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an >"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion. You have yet to demonstrate that it is mandatory. You have not even tried, other than making totally unsupported assertions. > But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM >ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers >to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY >tiny minority. See above - look for "6 to 8 MILLION" and ask someone about "economy of scale." >>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule >>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible >>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. > That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at >critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to >Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal! >That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget. How much does the United States _give_ to Israel? How much does the United States _give_ to Egypt? Explain that. [snip] >>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher >>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and >>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that >>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." > Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today >that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for >its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate. The issue is not the cost to the producer, but the cost to the consumer. Does Coors beer cost more than other competing, major American brands? Somehow I doubt it. If not, why not? What would we do without the Klan to remind us as to just how stupid human beings can get. Shedding the white sheet image doesn't seem to have changed the stupidity of the message any. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Wed Jun 12 11:32:24 PDT 1996 Article: 79921 of can.general Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,can.general Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,can.general Date: 12 Jun 1996 08:18:58 -0700 Organization: The Nizkor Project Lines: 159 Message-ID: <4pmn52$qkm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:214693 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320409 alt.conspiracy:57981 alt.revisionism:42824 alt.politics.perot:48775 alt.politics.radical-left:97447 can.general:79921 In article <4plblc$bhl@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: >In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken >McVay OBC) writes: [citing http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate.html] > Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day >salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How >broad-minded of you to write that! You have yet to show that "rabbis are paid $5,000 a day." I, and others, have pointed out that you are mis-quoting your source, but you fail to change your tune. This implies that either you cannot read (I reject that - you clearly can read), or you cannot understand what you do read (I reject that, too, as I believe you _can_ understand what you read.) That only leaves one conclusion: You are deliberately lying about this non-existent "$5000 per rabbi" payment in order to create an impression. Why would you want to do that? Perhaps because you are an antisemite? Could that be it? Why do you neglect to link the fee for service (for that, and not a "salary" for two rabbis, is what it is) to the production levels of the product? Could it be because you do not wish people to know that the cost per product cost is so small as to be near-non-existent? Why do you neglect to mention competing, non-kosher, product? >>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on >>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits >>Jewish organizations > Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in >another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several >thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher >certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to >having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a >year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish >organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher >certification" extortion racket. Extortion racket? You have yet to demonstrate, with all your hot air, that anyone has been forced to certify their products as kosher. You have, quite deliberately, ignored - repeatedly ignored - evidence that kosher certification led to increased market penetration, reduced cost, and higher profits. I.e. something a company like Nabisco, or Coors, would do quite willingly to attract the estimated 6-8 MILLION extra customers that would result. >>while only a small segment of the >>American population desires such markings, > Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population. >Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So >it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of >the American population demands such markings" You repeatedly ignore the Seventh Day Adventists, Moslems, and Just Plain Folks who keep kosher, or simply look for and purchase kosher foods - 6 to 8 MILLION of them. Why is that? Why do you continually try to convey the impression that none but a handful of Jews might benefit? I think that is quite dishonest of you. >> and that even the >>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept >>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax." > How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet >attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly >what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product >either way and how much it costs? > With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the >inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that >name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service >information, such as, > "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS > PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE > WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE > VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION > OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION > FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO > WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR > YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL > AUTHORITIES." How about "WARNING: THE PRICE PAID FOR THIS PRODUCT WAS PRECISELY THE SAME PRICE AS THE NON-CERTIFIED PRODUCT NEXT TO IT ON THE SHELF." Would that do it for you? Who forces you to buy kosher? How much food in your supermarket is kosher, and how much is not? >>The Facts >>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for >>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a >>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. > Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an >"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion. You have yet to demonstrate that it is mandatory. You have not even tried, other than making totally unsupported assertions. > But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM >ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers >to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY >tiny minority. See above - look for "6 to 8 MILLION" and ask someone about "economy of scale." >>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule >>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible >>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. > That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at >critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to >Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal! >That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget. How much does the United States _give_ to Israel? How much does the United States _give_ to Egypt? Explain that. [snip] >>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher >>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and >>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that >>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." > Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today >that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for >its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate. The issue is not the cost to the producer, but the cost to the consumer. Does Coors beer cost more than other competing, major American brands? Somehow I doubt it. If not, why not? What would we do without the Klan to remind us as to just how stupid human beings can get. Shedding the white sheet image doesn't seem to have changed the stupidity of the message any. -- The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn From sbartman@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 08:45:36 PDT 1996 Article: 22601 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.general Subject: Re: JOEBUGS Bogus "Canadian Economists" ["Kosher Tax"] Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:00:39 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 91 Message-ID: <4pqe0e$il4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pmm3v$qho@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: wsx-nc1-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 13 8:07:26 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:22601 alt.conspiracy:58414 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:321221 alt.politics.radical-left:97766 alt.politics.perot:48865 alt.politics.usa.republican:215572 can.general:80016 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, >joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote: >>In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken >>McVay OBC) writes: >>>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000 >>>per day as you claim. >> You're not serious? >Yes, I am. >> ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e. from >>Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread. There, >>it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!) >No, not fact. See below. >> Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their >>twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00 >>divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated? >Sorry, but I don't think you are reading him correctly. The >fee is paid to an organization, for service rendered, not to >any rabbi - i.e. it is not a salary. The "horse" is weighing in again. I left this thread days ago, and just peeked in. I find Chuckie still refusing to understand simple English. For clarity, Ken, (although I see that you already fully understand my former statements), I'll restate. I don't think Chuckie will get it, but I stopped caring about him last week. The fee (note, NOT salary) is to the organization owning the kosher mark. (I believe they are FTC registered, although I can't say for certain.) The bid for the certification is by the organization, the mark is granted by the organization, the check to pay is cut 'pay to the order of' the organization, the organization dispatches rabbis to the plant at their discretion, requests by consumers about exactly what the mark means are routed to the organization. Not the rabbis calling on the plant. Is that clear enough? The organization could send one rabbi, two, ten, or one thousand, and the fee would be $10,000, exactly as bid. It is not salary to any individual. The main economic underpining of the fee is the reputation, history, and credibility of the organization has with consumers reading the mark at retail. This has been earned over many years, and has marketplace value. Basic economic theory, backed up by reams of studies, show that reputation has great economic value. When companies are sold for more than book value the difference is assumed to be the stored value of their brands and marks, and is entered on the books as "goodwill" and depreciated over ensuing years. As I said before the kosher marks are EXACTLY the same as other marks in the world of packaged goods such as the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, the UL mark on electric devices, and the seal of the American Dental Society on Crest toothpaste. All paid for after certain hurdles are cleared by the manufacturer, all with marketplace value to different groups of potential consumers. If that doesn't make this "$5000 per day" crap stop my advice would be to ignore Chuckie. Every time you respond to his non-responses he spreads his brand of hate a little farther. As a personal aside, I did get a chuckle out of something he said in an earlier thread (although I kill-filed him, people keep quoting him). It was words to the effect of: "McOyVay, Bartman, Mittleman, and the rest of you Jews . . ." Huh. Maybe because Bartman is sort of German? It had a double-N generations ago, but I'm a native American, 3/4 Canadian by grandparents, grew up in the South, and my religious beliefs hover somewhere between agnosticism and atheism. I'm not Jewish nor was my mother (Protestant childhood, free-form spiritualism in later years.) I respect the cultural history of the Jewish religion, as I do all religions. It interests me. But I got into this issue because I saw things being claimed I knew to be untrue, not because I'm Jewish. I spent six years serving in the Navy, including over a year living under the Atlantic Ocean, to protect my right to believe that way, and, in a small way, for the right of manufacturers to freely contract with anyone they damn well please for any legal end, including kosher certification. People like Chuckie must always be resisted, not because he'll ever change, but because it makes the rest of us stronger and more clear-headed in our belief that understanding and respecting differences are one, pure thing that help make us ethical humans. Steve From mcc@lusitania.watson.ibm.com Tue Jun 18 10:51:24 PDT 1996 Article: 23155 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!lusitania.watson.ibm.com!mcc From: mcc@lusitania.watson.ibm.com (Mark Chu-Carroll) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF Date: 17 Jun 1996 14:47:24 GMT Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research Lines: 85 Message-ID: <4q3r5s$14tt@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4plido$f7s@news.usaor.net> <4pq6jp$isj@nadine.teleport.com> <4pt6ob$lvp@liberator.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lusitania.watson.ibm.com Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:23155 alt.politics.usa.republican:218438 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:323739 alt.conspiracy:59918 alt.revisionism:44291 alt.politics.perot:49223 In article <4pt6ob$lvp@liberator.concentric.net>, Ronald C. Schoedel wrote: >kathleen@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote: > >>I buy items with a 'K' or a 'U' on it. So does my entire family. I also >>buy non-kosher, but take comfort in knowing that the kosher food has been >>inspected. > >Inspected for what? Is this an inspection that bears some great >significance for anyone other than a small religious cult? Well, as surprising as it may be to a hate-obsessed bigot like yourself, yes, many people do consider the kashrut inspection significant. Vegetarians consider kosher certification significant, because they know that if it's marked kosher parve, they can be certain that it doesn't contain any meat products. Muslims consider it significant, because if it's kosher and it doesn't contain beef, then it's definitely Halal. Lots of people consider it significant on products like frankfurters, because they know that if it's kosher, it's made from quality meat, not beef by-products. Some people find it significant on dairy products, because they've heard about how milk companies ship milk in tank trucks, which haven't necessarily been cleaned well after their last shipment of pesticides. They know that the Rabbi who certifies the dairy would not certify it if they were using dirty trucks for shipment. All of these things make people other than religious Jews look for products that are labelled with a kosher certification. And that makes kosher certification a good thing for a business. Businesses ultimately look after their bottom line - if they can sell more products by spending some money on something like kosher certification, and the profit from the extra sales outweighs the cost, then they'll do it. Think of it this way: suppose that one half of one percent of consumers in the US actually look for kosher certification. That's 1 million, 250 thousand people. That's a pretty large group of people. And most business would really like to get an extra 1 million people as customers. Especially when the majority of those extra one million potential customers come from a demographic group that tends to be above average in education and income. That's a *very* attractive group of potential customers. Suppose that by spending just $5000 a year, you could attract those customers to buy your products on a regular basis. Would you do it? If you're a businessman, you damn betcha you would. Would you raise your prices and alienate your established customer base, in order to attract these new customers? Hell no! You'd swallow the extra cost, and consider it to be the price of expanding your customer base. The extra profit that you'd earn from extra sales would outweight the cost - you'd still pull in more profits. If you didn't, you'd cancel the extra cost. (Which is why many companies don't get kosher certifications - the extra cost isn't justified for their products.) That's exactly what happens in the real world. (You know - the world outside of your little paranoid fantasies.) Business make decisions based on profits - and for many businesses, the extra cost of kosher certification pays off handsomely in profits. For some it doesn't, and so they don't get the certification. But hey, I must be wrong, it's all a conspiracy. It's them evil JOOOOOS out to extort money from everyone. It's not economics, or good business practice. -- Mark Craig Chu-Carroll || "I'm not dumb, IBM T.J. Watson Research Center || I just have a command of thoroughly useless mcc@watson.ibm.com || information." --- Calvin From fresh@panix.com Fri Jun 21 10:16:01 PDT 1996 Article: 57968 of soc.culture.jewish Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!usenet From: fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish Subject: Re: KOSHER FOOD Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:15:45 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4qd07l$k00@news1.panix.com> References: <4qcjso$pss@gunmetal.starway.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: fresh.dialup.access.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Reva wrote: >Hi, could anyone help me with this question >How do you define a kosher food? >Please reply, >Thanks in advanced, >Reva > Any food product that is not from an animal is kosher as long as it is either not processed in any way or is processed underr the supervision of a rabbi. This also goes for eggs and milk. Meat must be slaughtered in a particular way by a slaughterer trained in kosher killing. The knife used must be examined for nicks and the animal (which may not be a predator or an animail w/a split hoof that does not ruminate) must be killed instantly, with one sweep of the knife, so that all blood vessels and nerves are cut at once. Finally, you don't eat milk products with meat products. The wait between can be between 1-5 hrs. depending. Probably alot I left out--people will fill in the blanks. Andrew ------------------------------------- "If they give you ruled paper, Write the other way." --Juan Ramon Jimenez From mcc@thunder.watson.ibm.com Wed Jun 26 21:35:49 PDT 1996 Article: 46172 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!thunder.watson.ibm.com!mcc From: mcc@thunder.watson.ibm.com (Mark Chu-Carroll) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada] Date: 25 Jun 1996 15:49:24 GMT Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research Lines: 155 Message-ID: <4qp1q4$ia9@watnews1.watson.ibm.com> References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4qf6q0$clv@shiva.usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: thunder.watson.ibm.com Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46172 alt.politics.nationalism.white:23807 alt.conspiracy:61943 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:327300 alt.politics.radical-left:100363 alt.politics.perot:49665 alt.politics.usa.republican:222733 In article , Max Kennedy wrote: >hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote: > >>In article , >>Max Kennedy (mkennedy@iglou.com) writes: > >> It isn't what goes into a man that makes him unclean, it's what >> comes out of him that makes him unclean. > >>According to Jewish religious law, both what goes in and what comes >>out can make a person unclean. > >I'm not Jewish, obviously. The above was, essentially, said by Jesus Christ. > >> If you want to be 'kosher', give food to the hungry. > >>What makes Mr. Kennedy think that practicing Jews do not give food to >>the hungry? Charity is another principle of Jewish law; so much so, >>that even the poor are encouraged to give charity. > >The above, however, is mentioned in Jewish writtings SPECIFCALLY as a >condemantion against the literalist. Which, btw, Kosher laws fall under, >especially to the person on this list who would even elevate it to "moral" law. > >But this is off the topic. Clearly the point made earlier that Kosher law is >not a matter of "good healthy eating, even for vegitarians", but a religious >belief by a (non Christian) minority sect is correct. > >I'm not interested in a religious discussion. I'm not jewish, and well, >they're not Christians. The point has been made that the Kosher labeling >is for the benefit of a small and vocal minority for religious reasons, and >that is borne out (the vocal part especially, considering the number of posts >currently flooding these groups!). The problem is that repeated claim that the reason for some food products being kosher isn't simply economics, but it caused by some dishonest behavior on the part of Jews. Yes, Kashrut is a religious practice, and yes, it is only a concern to a relatively small minority of people. But the reasons why producers of food products make their products kosher isn't because they're afraid of being accused of antisemitism, as the original posters in this thread claim. It's because it makes simple economic sense. >What has not been borne out, on either side, is what this costs. Although, >seperate lines for kosher foods would be an added expense. Actually, it's quite easy to see what it costs. Go to your grocery store, and walk up the aisles. In most categories of food, there are both kosher and non-kosher products. For each category, compare the cost of the kosher products against the non-kosher products. What you'll find, roughly, is the following: - For non-meat, non-dairy products, the kosher products are exactly the same price as the non-kosher. In this category of food, you'll generally find that most products are kosher, because the cost of making the product kosher is quite low, and the increase in profits that come from expanding the market is significantly larger than the cost of making it kosher. (Remember that the prime responsibility of a company is to produce profits for its shareholders. If something costs $10,000, but increases the yearly profits by $50,000, then a company is virtually *obligated* to spend that $10,000 in order to earn that addition $40,000 in profits.) - For dairy products, you'll find a lot of variation. - Things like milk, butter, and cream are practically universally kosher in areas where there are Jews. The cost is minimal, and so it makes good business sense to pay the cost, and increase your sales. In areas without Jewish populations, these products generally aren't kosher. - Yogurts vary; the custard style ones are *never* kosher, because they use gelatin; of the others, many are kosher, many aren't. There's no real price difference between the kosher ones and the non-kosher. - For cheeses, kosher cheeses are virtually non-existant in American grocery stores. And when you can find them, they're *very* expensive. This is because the production of cheese requires a substance called rennet. Most rennet comes from the intestines of cows. So any cheese made with beef rennet isn't kosher. But non-beef rennet is *very* expensive. And so most cheeses aren't kosher, because the cost of making it kosher outweights the increase in sales caused by expanding the market. So most cheeses aren't kosher. And guess what? There's no uproar from the Jewish community about how cheesemakers are antisemitic. An excellent counterexample to the original claim. - For meat products, virtually all are non-kosher. In my grocery store, there's a very small freezer chest containing Empire kosher chicken, and a small freezer chest containing Empire and Tabachnik kosher prepared foods. That's it: every other meat product in the store is non-kosher. Why? Because kosher meat is *much* more expensive than non-kosher. So the economics dictate that it's not worth the expense. And again, no complaint from the Jewish community. >Not all private certification brings extra expense. the UL for example is >private, but then again, it provides actual value. I don't see Kosher law as >being naturally valuable in the first place; this conversation therefore could >go on a very long time without hard statistics. *You* think that the UL provides extra value. Personally, I don't, because I've heard stories about how you actually get a UL tag, and I don't trust them a bit. But that doesn't matter a bit. Other consumers want it - and they want it enough that it makes sound economic sense for producers to pay UL to get certified. And so it happens. >In addition, some Christians would naturally object to any widespread >religious beliefs being bandied about in their society which are essentially >ritualistic. If they don't like it, they don't have to buy kosher products. There are plenty of non-kosher products available. If they want producers to stop producing kosher products even though it makes economic sense, screw 'em. There's no reason for a company to reduce its profits in order to satisfy some bigot's foolish demands. >One thing that I would like to know, however, is if it is true as someone else >said that "iodine salt is non-kosher"? This is dangerous if true, because >iodine starvation causes a type of retardation. It concerns me very much, >especially because my family has lately been buying de-iodinized salt >frequently by accident, because for some reason it has suddenly become >popular to sell it. That's actually just a misunderstanding. There's a product called kosher salt, which is a misnomer. It's kosher*ing* salt. For certain cuts of meat, people who keep kosher use salt on the meat before cooking it to draw the blood out. A very coarse salt works better for doing this than a fine grained table salt. So a coarser grade of salt is used. This is marketed as "kosher salt". The coarse-grained kosher salt does not have added iodine. Kosher salt is widely used by good cooks, because the coarse grain is actually better for cooking, and because non-iodized salt tastes better. (The iodine can effect the flavor of the food, and so many people prefer the non-iodized.) You get *plenty* of iodine from other sources, including table salt. There's no reason to use it in the kitchen if you like the flavor of non-iodized coarse salt better. So it's perfectly safe nutritionally and healthwise to cook with kosher salt. Hell, Suzanna Foo, the owner of what's often called the best Chinese restaurant in the US (it's in Philadelphia if you're interested, and I do believe that it is, without a doubt, one of the best restaurants that I've ever had the priviledge to eat in), tells people that they should always use kosher salt when they cook, because coarse, non-iodized salt will make the food taste better. She's sure not concerned with keeping kosher! -- Mark Craig Chu-Carroll || "I'm not dumb, IBM T.J. Watson Research Center || I just have a command of thoroughly useless mcc@watson.ibm.com || information." --- Calvin
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